Replacing the M113 and FV432

[uk 75]

At the end of the Cold War it looked as if the M113 and FV432 would leave service either not to be replaced or to be replaced by more suitable vehicles. Thirty years later, they still serve in many forms and much refurbished. A bit like a London Taxi the simple box on tracks is right for the job.
Which begs the question, like the London taxi, should they be replaced by very similar but modern vehicles?

 

[riggerrob]

Yes.
Secondary troops (signallers, medics, engineers, etc. ) still need shrapnel-resistant vehicles for moving over rough terrain.
An under-appreciated role is NBC protection provided by sealed hulls and sophisticated ventilation systems.
Ideally those simple APCs share high-wear components with ther AFVs in the same supply train.

Consider that the First World War taught armies about the value of steel helmets in reducing shrapnel wounds, but poor bloody infantry did not get roofed APCS until they needed to cross contaminated ground during the Cold War.

On a personal note, my first beret was black and I first learned how to drive an M113.5 Lynx.

 

[GK Dundas]

Yes.
Secondary troops (signallers, medics, engineers, etc. ) still need shrapnel-resistant vehicles for moving over rough terrain.
An under-appreciated role is NBC protection provided by sealed hulls and sophisticated ventilation systems.
Ideally those simple APCs share high-wear components with ther AFVs in the same supply train.

Consider that the First World War taught armies about the value of steel helmets in reducing shrapnel wounds, but poor bloody infantry did not get roofed APCS until they needed to cross contaminated ground during the Cold War.

On a personal note, my first beret was black and I first learned how to drive an M113.5 Lynx.

Ahh, the Lynx basically a Porsche with tracks .
It also had possibly the most accurate.50 mount I have ever seen. I have often wondered if that's because the army had hoped to use the same mounting for the 20 mm RH 202 .
Got to just love the (then) Food Machinery Corporation.

 

[riggerrob]

FMC 113.5 Lynx in Dutch service were later retro-fitted with 25 mm Oerlikon cannons.
The Canadian Army might have considered that option, but the money was never available.
Like many other Canadian military purchases, it probably required money from several different shoe boxes.

 

[GK Dundas]

FMC 113.5 Lynx in Dutch service were later retro-fitted with 20 mm cannons.
The Canadian Army might have considered that option, but the money was never available.
Like many other Canadian military purchases, it probably required money from several different shoe boxes.

Actually the Dutch used a 25 mm Oerlikon . We were supposed to be purchasing the Rhiemettall RH 202.
The ones we tested seemed to have a real problem with jamming.
Pity because at the time there was discussion of buying them not only for the Lynx and the APC's as well as investing in twin mounts to provide a AAA capability.

 

[GK Dundas]

With most country's militaries you can play "What if ?" With Canada a disturbing amount of the time you can play "What might have been."
And it all seems to come down to a lack of imagination on the part of senior people in and out of uniform.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Funny how the US Army ended up with the less-than-successful M114 instead of the M113 C&R which seems to have had a great reputation. I wonder on what criteria that selection occurred.

 

[Grey Havoc]

To the mods: how was my post on that TankPorn reddit thread on that M113 in the Ukraine offtopic?

 

[Josh_TN]

At the end of the Cold War it looked as if the M113 and FV432 would leave service either not to be replaced or to be replaced by more suitable vehicles. Thirty years later, they still serve in many forms and much refurbished. A bit like a London Taxi the simple box on tracks is right for the job.
Which begs the question, like the London taxi, should they be replaced by very similar but modern vehicles?

In the US at least it looks like the Bradly hull will adopted for the role.

Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GTX]

To the mods: how was my post on that TankPorn reddit thread on that M113 in the Ukraine offtopic?

How is a post talking purely about M113s operating in Ukraine anything to do with a M113 or FV432 replacement?

 

[Grey Havoc]

It was to illustrate that the M113 is still in frontline service in the most unlikely of places.

 

[Pioneer]

I'm thinking part of the reason it's been so difficult to develop and field a credible M113/FV432 replacement is naturally multi- faceted....
1/ is naturally cost;
2/ is perceived trends - for example, with the seeming obsession of everything having to be a MICV/ICV/IFV, if it didn't have a 20mm cannon, ATGM and firing ports, it wasn't fashionable or viable to think about, let alone consider;

But the reality is and has obviously remained that a battle taxi/APC is still needed in combat operations. The fact that the US Army and USMC seemed to be able and willing to use HMMWV as convoy escorts to great risk and cost of it's embarked crews has always had me stuffed.
Then there's been the trend of wheeled APC's, which supposedly came back into vogue on the grounds of 'cost and strategic mobility', which might have seemed viable during the obsession of fighting 'the war on terror', but in my view and experience, the wheeled APC is definitely yet another compromise in itself.

P.S. I fully agree with your statement
Josh_TN

In the US at least it looks like the Bradly hull will adopted for the role.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[GK Dundas]

There were at least two or three variants of the
M113 mounting a 20 mm gun or a 25 mm.not counting one offs and adhoc types slapped together by guerrilla groups.
All the AFV 434 and M 113 were just simple boxes on tracks. Perhaps that was where the genius lay.

 

[riggerrob]

I'm thinking part of the reason it's been so difficult to develop and field a credible M113/FV432 replacement is naturally multi- faceted....
1/ is naturally cost;
2/ is perceived trends - for example, with the seeming obsession of everything having to be a MICV/ICV/IFV, if it didn't have a 20mm cannon, ATGM and firing ports, it wasn't fashionable or viable to think about, let alone consider;

But the reality is and has obviously remained that a battle taxi/APC is still needed in combat operations. The fact that the US Army and USMC seemed to be able and willing to use HMMWV as convoy escorts to great risk and cost of it's embarked crews has always had me stuffed.
Then there's been the trend of wheeled APC's, which supposedly came back into vogue on the grounds of 'cost and strategic mobility', which might have seemed viable during the obsession of fighting 'the war on terror', but in my view and experience, the wheeled APC is definitely yet another compromise in itself.

P.S. I fully agree with your statement
Josh_TN

In the US at least it looks like the Bradly hull will adopted for the role.

Regards
Pioneer

Wheeled AFVs still have rolls to play on modern battlefields. Missions like convoy escort, patrolling airfields, riot control, moving bulk cargo along hard-surfaced roads, etc.
Much depends upon the quality of roads. Only well-built and well-maintained concrete roads can avoid being chewed up by steel tracks. Also consider that wheeled AFVs tend to be lighter than fully-tracked MBTs, so can cross more bridges and climb higher along the rough goat tracks that pass for roads in much of the world.

 

[Fluff]

How about the FFV

ACSV G5​

ACSV G5 - FFG Flensburger Fahrzeugbau GmbH

www.ffg-flensburg.de

 

[Pioneer]

I'm thinking part of the reason it's been so difficult to develop and field a credible M113/FV432 replacement is naturally multi- faceted....
1/ is naturally cost;
2/ is perceived trends - for example, with the seeming obsession of everything having to be a MICV/ICV/IFV, if it didn't have a 20mm cannon, ATGM and firing ports, it wasn't fashionable or viable to think about, let alone consider;

But the reality is and has obviously remained that a battle taxi/APC is still needed in combat operations. The fact that the US Army and USMC seemed to be able and willing to use HMMWV as convoy escorts to great risk and cost of it's embarked crews has always had me stuffed.
Then there's been the trend of wheeled APC's, which supposedly came back into vogue on the grounds of 'cost and strategic mobility', which might have seemed viable during the obsession of fighting 'the war on terror', but in my view and experience, the wheeled APC is definitely yet another compromise in itself.

P.S. I fully agree with your statement
Josh_TN

In the US at least it looks like the Bradly hull will adopted for the role.

Regards
Pioneer

Wheeled AFVs still have rolls to play on modern battlefields. Missions like convoy escort, patrolling airfields, riot control, moving bulk cargo along hard-surfaced roads, etc.
Much depends upon the quality of roads. Only well-built and well-maintained concrete roads can avoid being chewed up by steel tracks. Also consider that wheeled AFVs tend to be lighter than fully-tracked MBTs, so can cross more bridges and climb higher along the rough goat tracks that pass for roads in much of the world.

Just to clarify riggerrob, I'm not saying there's no role for 'wheeled AFV's'. The issue I have is that for decades, the likes of the US Army had done all it could to avoid a purpose designed wheeled AFV within it's ORBAT, continuously kicking the can down the road with the likes of the pseudo armoured and armed HMMWV, at the cost of far far too many soldiers lives........

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Desertfox]

Isnt the Stryker exactly that? A wheeled AFV?

 

[Pioneer]

Isnt the Stryker exactly that? A wheeled AFV?

Yes it is Desertfox, but how many years did it take for the US Army to get their shit together and get it into actual service - 2002, if I remember correctly.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Rickshaw]

Australia developed the M113as4 a lengthened M113 with a new turret mounting a .50hmg.

They also developed the Bushmaster, a wheeled APC:

Each fulfills different needs. The M113as4 is for infantry and the Bushmaster is basically for everybody else.

 

[riggerrob]

Dear Pioneer,
One of the problems with up-armored HMMWVs is that Taliban could increase the amount of explosives in road-side bombs far faster than Westerners could hang more armor on to HMMWVs. They eventually figured out that an entire TON of explosives could flip an M1 Abrams tank!

 

[GK Dundas]

The Taliban never had to deal with the Abram's . They did however run into Canadian Leo I's and II s. And they didn't like it.
They referred to the tanks as " The new evil ".
Mind you I could see flipping an a tank with a one tonne explosive charge. Easily in fact

 

[apparition13]

Israel is replacing their M113s with the Eitan, which is an 8x8 AFV.

Singapore is replacing theirs with the Hunter AFV, which I think continues their track record of excellent kit. Tracked APCs seem to have mostly been replaced by wheeled, so the Hunter is one of a rather small subset of tracked ones.

 

[Fluff]

Israel is replacing their M113s with the Eitan, which is an 8x8 AFV.

Singapore is replacing theirs with the Hunter AFV, which I think continues their track record of excellent kit. Tracked APCs seem to have mostly been replaced by wheeled, so the Hunter is one of a rather small subset of tracked ones.

We need to be careful with such statements, Israel is now replacing M113 that are basically in second line. Front line APC is now nammer, a fully tracked Merkava APC.

Uk has got itself into a bit of a pickle, so its not easy to follow. If we get what we ordered, we will still have Tanks, a heavy tracked APC/Recon, and wheeled APC.

 

[apparition13]

Namer is the heavy to accompany the tanks, now in IFV form with the new turret. Eitan is for the battle taxi role. What I find interesting is that neither Israel nor Singapore is referring to their new vehicles as APCs, both are listed as the more generic AFV instead.

 

[riggerrob]

The Taliban never had to deal with the Abram's . They did however run into Canadian Leo I's and II s. And they didn't like it.
They referred to the tanks as " The new evil ".
Mind you I could see flipping an a tank with a one tonne explosive charge. Easily in fact

You are being more precise than me. I was just using "Taliban" to describe the dozen-ish different Muslim fundamentalist groups (Al Queda, Boko Haram, fedayen, Taliban, etc.) that fought in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Sahel, etc.

 

[TomS]

The Taliban never had to deal with the Abram's . They did however run into Canadian Leo I's and II s. And they didn't like it.
They referred to the tanks as " The new evil ".
Mind you I could see flipping an a tank with a one tonne explosive charge. Easily in fact

Hezbollah got some practice wrecking Merkavas that way.