Grey Havoc

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Asked about the potential tank acquisition and its status, a spokesperson for the Polish Defence Ministry told Defense News that “as part of the ongoing analyses related to the operational needs, we have identified the necessity to provide [Polish] armored military units with modern tanks that would comply with the requirements of the modern battlefield.”
“We are currently performing analytical-conceptual work with the aim to define the possibilities of securing these capacities based on the available technical solutions that are proposed [to Poland] by potential suppliers,” the spokesperson said.
The Polish Armed Forces are reportedly interested in acquiring up to 250 tanks in the M1A2 SEPv3 variant and a further dozen tracked vehicles for training under a deal estimated to be worth between 11 billion zloty (U.S. $2.9 billion) and 19 billion zloty (U.S. $5 billion).
 

isayyo2

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Asked about the potential tank acquisition and its status, a spokesperson for the Polish Defence Ministry told Defense News that “as part of the ongoing analyses related to the operational needs, we have identified the necessity to provide [Polish] armored military units with modern tanks that would comply with the requirements of the modern battlefield.”
“We are currently performing analytical-conceptual work with the aim to define the possibilities of securing these capacities based on the available technical solutions that are proposed [to Poland] by potential suppliers,” the spokesperson said.
The Polish Armed Forces are reportedly interested in acquiring up to 250 tanks in the M1A2 SEPv3 variant and a further dozen tracked vehicles for training under a deal estimated to be worth between 11 billion zloty (U.S. $2.9 billion) and 19 billion zloty (U.S. $5 billion).
Seems like I've been reading about Polish Abrams for over a decade now or longer, certainly not complaining though.

Is it time to write off any further modernization attempts of the PT-91 and T-72 fleet?
 
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Moose

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The PT-72 and T-72 are getting updates to stick around for a bit until a replacement can fully come online, but Poland's been on a quest for a new front line tank for a couple years now. They don't seem interested in sticking with Leopard II, and at least until recently it looked like they might end up with a bespoke variant of South Korea's Black Panther. But the Abrams talk has come on strong, in a way that suggests there's a real push for it happening right now.
 

jsport

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It is pass time for Lima start to start talking about another vehicle so sell some SEPs. :oops:
 

helmutkohl

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does this mean they gave up on the K2 Black Panther?

or was it a separate project.. although not sure if any army really needs two MBTs of the same generation
 
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Wyvern

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or was it a separate project.. although not sure if any army really needs two MBTs
Unless they intend to greatly expand their MBT fleet quickly, which seems to be what the Poles are going for. They have a large fleet of T-72s and PT-91s that urgently need replacing. The South Koreans may not have the production capacity to produce the amount the Poles need, or it could be the the number of K2s they wished to have was out of their budget, and the M1 was a cheaper option to suit their plans.

There are three other possibilities that could be the case:

1) The Poles intend to retire their fleet of Leopards, as well as their fleet of T-72s and PT-91s.

2) They wish to use a combination of Leopards, M1s and K2s to expand their fleet.

3) The Poles wish to have an MBT which would be similar on a spare parts basis to the ones of their allies.

The above possibilities are purely hypothetical, and are only speculation on my part.

This all assumes they are buying both, as from the report I've read, they Polish Defence Ministry has not confirmed that they are dropping the K2. These reports also say they are ordering 250 or the type, which is just under half of what is needed to replace the T-72s and PT-91s. The K-2 is still on the cards, unless the Polish Defence Ministry states otherwise. One has to realise the position they're in; Russia isn't that far away, and tensions have only been on the rise in the past few years. Poland has an ageing MBT fleet that needs replacing, so I won't be surprised if they eventually order the K2 somewhere down the line when the Leopard 2PLs and the last upgraded PT-91s are retired.
 

Wyvern

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Here are the reports I was reading:


 

GTX

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Still needs US approval for the sale as far as I'm aware. Not that I expect it will be an issue.
 

AN/AWW-14(V)

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This all assumes they are buying both, as from the report I've read, they Polish Defence Ministry has not confirmed that they are dropping the K2. These reports also say they are ordering 250 or the type, which is just under half of what is needed to replace the T-72s and PT-91s. The K-2 is still on the cards, unless the Polish Defence Ministry states otherwise. One has to realise the position they're in; Russia isn't that far away, and tensions have only been on the rise in the past few years. Poland has an ageing MBT fleet that needs replacing, so I won't be surprised if they eventually order the K2 somewhere down the line when the Leopard 2PLs and the last upgraded PT-91s are retired.

imho K2 not needed because US has hundreds of various version M1 in the storage for potencial replacement poland war losses. And what South Korea has to offer in a war case - half a dozen :D? Abrams is one choice if you need combat endurance
 
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GTX

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I'm surprised there was any delay at all once the Poles made the decision. I would thought the US might even subsidize a little.

That said, the Polish tank fleet seems to be in pretty good shape; as far as I can tell they have continually modernized their local flavor of T-72. It might not be T-90 level, but then there aren't a hell of a lot of T-90s either.
 

GTX

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That said, the Polish tank fleet seems to be in pretty good shape; as far as I can tell they have continually modernized their local flavor of T-72. It might not be T-90 level, but then there aren't a hell of a lot of T-90s either.
They also have the Leopard IIs
 

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That said, the Polish tank fleet seems to be in pretty good shape; as far as I can tell they have continually modernized their local flavor of T-72. It might not be T-90 level, but then there aren't a hell of a lot of T-90s either.
They also have the Leopard IIs
And I believe they have been upgrading those as well, though those would have been relatively capable in comparison out of the gate. I think they have ~250.
 

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They aren't buying surplus, sales of this sort take time to review and hash out. Not the least because they probably want production ASAP and so does the US Army. If SECDEF Austin leans into it, though, it can move a bit.
 

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There aren’t any M1A2 SEP v3s (what Poland has express a desire for) just sitting about. In fact the US Army is still getting theirs. Moreover, just because Poland has said they want them, they still have to get permission to purchase and I don’t believe that has been granted yet.
 

helmutkohl

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does this mean Poland has given up on the K2 Black Eagle tank?
 

Foo Fighter

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It would seem so, more variation would make supply and logistics very difficult.
 

Josh_TN

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It would make a lot more sense to have a common platform with the US. Besides easing logistics, as someone else noted it means that spares and replacements could be pretty forthcoming from US stocks. I'd go so far as to say the Korean deal was just a gambit to get better US terms; I suspect that's what the Poles wanted all along. It might be the case the US wasn't originally willing to part with the latest version of the M1; it is a touch unprecedented for the US to sell the most recent version of an MBT that it hasn't equipped itself with yet.
 

Foo Fighter

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It would be a reasonable use for those USMC ex stocks.
 

Foo Fighter

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I understood they required large upgrades? Oh well, perhaps not.
 

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Didn't congress order a bunch of extra M1s that are just sitting in a storage park somewhere?
 

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IIRC virtually all Abrams are 'old metal' reconditioned into new. Apart from those still being produced in Egypt, all are from original production.
 

sferrin

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IIRC virtually all Abrams are 'old metal' reconditioned into new. Apart from those still being produced in Egypt, all are from original production.
With no new production, for some time now, (as far as I know) I wonder how difficult it would be to turn the line back on.
 

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The "rebuilding" can at times resemble that of certain 19th century warships which emerged as all-new ships carrying the names of older ones. Keeping Lima essentially fully up is an article of faith among Armor supporters.
 

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17 Dec 2017 US Army Contract announcement covering M1A2 SEP V3:

General Dynamics Land Systems Inc., Sterling Heights, Michigan, was awarded a $2,628,902,518 fixed-price-incentive contract for the upgrade of up to 786 M1A1 configured Abrams vehicles to newly configured M1A2 System Enhancement Package Version 3, and to upgrade M1A1 vehicles to M1A12S and M1A2-K vehicles. Bids were solicited via the Internet with one received. Work locations and funding will be determined with each order, with an estimated completion date of Dec. 21, 2020. U.S. Army Contracting Command, Warren, Michigan, is the contracting activity (W56HZV-18-D-0012).

And where the 'magic' occurs:

 

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Does the SEP3 involve an engine change? If not, I assume it is typical for vehicles undergoing this level of upgrade to receive a new engine zero them?
 

GTX

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Does the SEP3 involve an engine change? If not, I assume it is typical for vehicles undergoing this level of upgrade to receive a new engine zero them?
No, it still has the same Honeywell AGT1500 engine, though it has had improvements along the way such as those introduced through the total integrated engine revitalization (TIGER) program. The M1A2 SEP V3 does get a new electrical generator though.
 

icyplanetnhc (Steve)

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Replacement of the ATG1500 has dragged on for some time, and I don't think there's a current program of record to try to replace the engine. That said, based on conversations with tankers, the engine's fuel efficiency is actually quite decent, comparable to diesels, when the tank is actually moving. The Abrams' reputation for high fuel consumption comes from when it's stationary and idling. The SEPv3 addresses this with an internal APU, and with this, I'm guessing that an engine replacement is lower on the list of priorities. It certainly wouldn't hurt though.
 

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It's not planned or even on the table for either SEP V3 or SEP V4.
 

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Do these modernizations replace the drive train with fresh parts?
 

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