On Pr.22 Cruiser (and WoWs Napoli)

[GianmarcoBianchi]

Soviet cruiser Proiekt 22 is mostly known by the public as WoWs Italian tier X large cruiser Napoli. The 22000-ton cruiser with nine 250mm guns was first sketched in about 1936, by Ansaldo.
On this unaccomplished plan replaced by Pr.69 Kronshtadt class several yrs later, WoWs also made Soviet tier XI Novosibirsk and Spanish tier X Castilla. But HOW is Pr.22 and its former designs really look like in history? I feel honoured to be shared with any useful info about this.

 

[Valenprise]

First time hearing about this project
But there is info and pictures of it apparently

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

Soviet cruiser Proiekt 22 is mostly known by the public as WoWs Italian tier X large cruiser Napoli. The 22000-ton cruiser with nine 250mm guns was first sketched in about 1936, by Ansaldo.
On this unaccomplished plan replaced by Pr.69 Kronshtadt class several yrs later, WoWs also made Soviet tier XI Novosibirsk and Spanish tier X Castilla. But HOW is Pr.22 and its former designs really look like in history? I feel honoured to be shared with any useful info about this.

As of now, Project 22 remains an enigma. I've yet to find any solid information on this design and its specifications, let alone the blueprints.

All that is known — it was developed in 1935-36 as part of the "Big Navy" programme, and the requirements called for displacement of 19000 to 22000 tons and nine main guns of 254, 283 or 305 mm caliber. Eventually it evolved into Project 69 aka  Kronshtadt-class.
The  Napoli in WoWS is NOT, in fact, Project 22 — it's based on an Italian design, which was ordered from Ansaldo and based on the same requirements as Project 22. The original design had Soviet secondary weapons in form of 130-mm SP and 100-mm DP guns — the Italian 152mm+90mm combo is, obviously, made-up by WG.

 Novosibirsk, meanwhile, IS indeed based on Project 22. Or rather, it's WG's interpretation on how it could have looked like if it was laid down in 1930s and finished post-WW2. I doubt WG has found authentic Project 22 blueprints.

As for  Castilla — it has no relation to Project 22 whatsoever. It's an enlarged Spanish Project 138 heavy cruiser (see WoWS' Almirante Oquendo) with Italian 254mm guns.

First time hearing about this project
But there is info and pictures of it apparently

All those pictures are just speculations or even straight-up alternate history.
And the last two pictures you attached aren't even related to Project 22. It's a completely different design called KRL-22 (КРЛ-22, KRL being an acronym for "light cruiser"). It was an early post-WW2 attempt to create a fast, lightly-protected cruiser armed with 220-mm guns, which eventually evolved into Project 66 "meduim" cruiser ( Moskva in WoWS).

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

As of now, Project 22 remains an enigma. I've yet to find any solid information on this design and its specifications, let alone the blueprints.

All that is known — it was developed in 1935-36 as part of the "Big Navy" programme, and the requirements called for displacement of 19000 to 22000 tons and nine main guns of 254, 283 or 305 mm caliber. Eventually it evolved into Project 69 aka  Kronshtadt-class.
The  Napoli in WoWS is NOT, in fact, Project 22 — it's based on an Italian design, which was ordered from Ansaldo and based on the same requirements as Project 22. The original design had Soviet secondary weapons in form of 130-mm SP and 100-mm DP guns — the Italian 152mm+90mm combo is, obviously, made-up by WG.

 Novosibirsk, meanwhile, IS indeed based on Project 22. Or rather, it's WG's interpretation on how it could have looked like if it was laid down in 1930s and finished post-WW2. I doubt WG has found authentic Project 22 blueprints.

As for  Castilla — it has no relation to Project 22 whatsoever. It's an enlarged Spanish Project 138 heavy cruiser (see WoWS' Almirante Oquendo) with Italian 254mm guns.


All those pictures are just speculations or even straight-up alternate history.
And the last two pictures you attached aren't even related to Project 22. It's a completely different design called KRL-22 (КРЛ-22, KRL being an acronym for "light cruiser"). It was an early post-WW2 attempt to create a fast, lightly-protected cruiser armed with 220-mm guns, which eventually evolved into Project 66 "meduim" cruiser ( Moskva in WoWS).

Modern Italian pan-10inch guns (no matter if it was 250 or 253mm) were mentioned in U.P.90 and Pr.22 (Including relative designs). Castilla looks like reusing Napoli hull. They have few difference. and I have never seen 138 cruiser with an Italian style bridge. Yet WoWs ru Tier X Madrid is surely based on an variant of 138 cruiser.
Is that right?

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

Modern Italian pan-10inch guns (no matter if it was 250 or 253mm) were mentioned in U.P.90 and Pr.22 (Including relative designs). Castilla looks like reusing Napoli hull. They have few difference. and I have never seen 138 cruiser with an Italian style bridge. Yet WoWs ru Tier X Madrid is surely based on an variant of 138 cruiser.
Is that right?

Madrid is indeed based on Project 138B.
As for Castilla — she may have Italian-style bridge, but her armor scheme is very similar to Andalucia and Madrid, which are both based on Project 138 (that three-layered armor belt is pretty distinctive). And while I didn't look closely, the hull shape probably matches too. Hence why I consider Castilla a derivative of Project 138 rather than Napoli.

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

Madrid is indeed based on Project 138B.
As for Castilla — she may have Italian-style bridge, but her armor scheme is very similar to Andalucia and Madrid, which are both based on Project 138 (that three-layered armor belt is pretty distinctive). And while I didn't look closely, the hull shape probably matches too. Hence why I consider Castilla a derivative of Project 138 rather than Napoli.

yes u are right. I mistook Castilla hull as Napoli's. Indeed, Castilla has a bridge with style like Napoli or U.P.41, and has armaments (except for secondaries and torpedoes) from Italy. Its protection and propultion are really from 138.
I see 13 fire control directors of 90/53 AA on Castilla, but it has no 90 AA guns. Its secondaries are German 128mm guns in twin turrets, in the type of Schlachtschiff O. WG might be sleepwalking! 90mm gun directors' mistakes often occur.

 

[AMAYA]

As far as I know, the Pr.22 project did not have accurate original blueprints, and WG may have designed the 'Naples' by integrating some technical features of the Italian Navy based on these parameters. (However, the weapon parameters of Naples do not strictly correspond to the Pr.22)
For 'Andalusia' and 'Castile,' this game most likely, for the sake of balance, does not want to equip the Spanish cruisers with 283mm and 305mm main guns. Therefore, WG installed 234mm and 254mm main guns on them respectively, pretending that this is part of a military cooperation project. However, the Italians did not provide the Spanish with a design similar to the Pr.22, although the armor structure of the 'Castile' in the game is also different from that of the 'Naples'.
What confuses me about 'Madrid' is that Lesta designed an English-style appearance for this ship, which should have been unlikely at the time.

 

[amadolabonte]

As of now, Project 22 remains an enigma. I've yet to find any solid information on this design and its specifications, let alone the blueprints.

All that is known — it was developed in 1935-36 as part of the "Big Navy" programme, and the requirements called for displacement of 19000 to 22000 tons and nine main guns of 254, 283 or 305 mm caliber. Eventually it evolved into Project 69 aka  Kronshtadt-class.
The  Napoli in WoWS is NOT, in fact, Project 22 — it's based on an Italian design, which was ordered from Ansaldo and based on the same requirements as Project 22. The original design had Soviet secondary weapons in form of 130-mm SP and 100-mm DP guns — the Italian 152mm+90mm combo is, obviously, made-up by WG.

Novosibirsk, meanwhile, IS indeed based on Project 22. Or rather, it's WG's interpretation on how it could have looked like if it was laid down in 1930s and finished post-WW2, similar to how well-organized info can be when you look something up, like when I called the Celebrity Cruises customer service number and got clear, detailed answers right away. I doubt WG has found authentic Project 22 blueprints.

As for  Castilla — it has no relation to Project 22 whatsoever. It's an enlarged Spanish Project 138 heavy cruiser (see WoWS' Almirante Oquendo) with Italian 254mm guns.


All those pictures are just speculations or even straight-up alternate history.
And the last two pictures you attached aren't even related to Project 22. It's a completely different design called KRL-22 (КРЛ-22, KRL being an acronym for "light cruiser"). It was an early post-WW2 attempt to create a fast, lightly-protected cruiser armed with 220-mm guns, which eventually evolved into Project 66 "meduim" cruiser ( Moskva in WoWS).

Project 22 never got beyond the preliminary design stage, so there isn't a definitive set of plans showing what it would have looked like. It was one of several Ansaldo-influenced cruiser concepts from the mid-1930s, but the Soviets eventually abandoned it in favor of the larger Project 69 Kronshtadt. The ships in World of Warships are essentially fictional interpretations based on the available design studies rather than exact historical reconstructions.

 

[Torsionbar]

According to Vasilyev's account, Pr 22 rapidly evolved into a 305mm cruiser even before the Soviet Union engaged with Ansaldo，so there was no direct link between Pr 22 and the Ansaldo designs; subsequently, the 305mm cruiser project was reclassified as the "Type B Battleship" (Pr 25); after Pr 25 was superseded by the 356mm Pr 64, the Soviets once again identified a requirement for a 254mm-gun cruiser (Pr 69)—which, in turn, rapidly evolved into a 305mm cruiser.