NATO Cobras

[uk 75]

The US Huey Cobra was a formidable gunship helicopter. Unlike the later Apache which has found widespread use.with NATO, the Cobra did not get much NATO use.
West Germany should have been a major user. TOW equipped Cobras would have added much to Bundeswehr units. Instead the Boelkow B105 observation chopper acquired six HOT missiles and served till the end of the Cold War.
BAOR was a force dedicated to creating long range killing zones with Chieftains and Swingfire ATGW. TOW Cobras would have been a serious help. Instead the UK bolted missiles on to its Army utility choppers. SS11s on Scouts and then TOW on Lynx were BAOR tank killers.
Italy used TOW missiles and by the end of the Cold War had its own gunship-the A129 Mangusta. TOW Cobras could have been available much earlier.
Of course as in the case of other NATO countries money was the main obstacle and cheaper alternatives to the Cobra were chosen instead.
Ironically after the Cold War the UK and Netherlands adopted the Apache. Germany may yet buy them

 

[Avimimus]

Don't Cobras have pretty limited endurance with a full weapons load? Also, a larger footprint than the Bo-105? Using converted utility 'copters also produces a simpler supply train and easier maintenance training (less types).

Given the task at hand (putting mobile anti-tank missile platforms into place to plug gaps and ambush Soviet tank formations), I fail to see why the more complex AH-1 would be needed?

 

[green.nova343]

The original AH-1s were built with the engine, transmission, & rotors of the UH-1, so there would have been a commonality option already. That's even been continued through, with both the twin-engine UH-1s & AH-1s starting out with the P&WC Twin-Pacs, & now the AH-1Z/UH-1Y using dual T700 turboshafts.

As for the range...Bo 105 technically is higher, but not by much (354nm vs. 311nm, that's maybe 14% higher). But for West German service, for example, the Cobra had enough range that pretty much from any base in Germany, even back near the French-German border, it could have reached the East German border. So, yeah, definitely a missed opportunity for European users, especially since the first dedicated attack helicopter from any European nation was the A 129 (all of the prior ones being essentially converted "gunships" like the armed UH-1s).

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

This one for the AAC & ALAT instead of the Huey Cobra?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/wg-13-lynx-attack-helicopter-projects.2212/

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The original AH-1s were built with the engine, transmission, & rotors of the UH-1, so there would have been a commonality option already. That's even been continued through, with both the twin-engine UH-1s & AH-1s starting out with the P&WC Twin-Pacs, & now the AH-1Z/UH-1Y using dual T700 turboshafts.

As for the range...Bo 105 technically is higher, but not by much (354nm vs. 311nm, that's maybe 14% higher). But for West German service, for example, the Cobra had enough range that pretty much from any base in Germany, even back near the French-German border, it could have reached the East German border. So, yeah, definitely a missed opportunity for European users, especially since the first dedicated attack helicopter from any European nation was the A 129 (all of the prior ones being essentially converted "gunships" like the armed UH-1s).

For what it's worth.

The Heersflieger had 230 Alouette II, 110 CH-53DG Sea Stallion, 190 UH-1D Iroquois, 18 OV-10Z Bronco and 18 Do27 in 1975 according to Norman Polman's "World Combat Aircraft Directory". According to the same book about 300 Bö105 helicopters were to be purchased to replace the Army helicopters plus 30 Bö105 trainers for the Luftwaffe.

According to Wikipedia the German Army bought 312 Bö105s. That is 212 Bö 105 PAH-1s were delivered between 1979 and 1984. This was selected in 1975 as a temporary measure. The permanent measure was the Panzerabwehrhubschrauber-2 (PAH-2) better known as the Eurocopter Tiger. There were also 100 Bö105C light observation helicopters. Wikipedia says the aircraft was selected in 1977 for its Verbindungshubschrauber (VBH) program, but not when they were delivered.

How much standardisation would there have been between the 190 UH-1Ds and 212 AH-1s purchased instead of the 212 Bö 105 PAH-1s? And according to the Wikipedia article.

German Army leaders saw the PAH-1 as a temporary measure only, having originally sought a more capable anti-tank helicopter; they were particularly dissatisfied with the PAH-1's inability to perform nighttime combat missions and its self-protection capabilities.

Would 212 Huey Cobras purchased to meet PAH-1 been good enough for the Heerflieger to not want PAH-2? According to its Wikipedia article West Germany wanted 212 Eurocopter Tigers and France wanted 215 for a total of 427 helicopters.

 

[green.nova343]

For what it's worth.

The Heersflieger had 230 Alouette II, 110 CH-53DG Sea Stallion, 190 UH-1D Iroquois, 18 OV-10Z Bronco and 18 Do27 in 1975 according to Norman Polman's "World Combat Aircraft Directory". According to the same book about 300 Bö105 helicopters were to be purchased to replace the Army helicopters plus 30 Bö105 trainers for the Luftwaffe.

According to Wikipedia the German Army bought 312 Bö105s. That is 212 Bö 105 PAH-1s were delivered between 1979 and 1984. This was selected in 1975 as a temporary measure. The permanent measure was the Panzerabwehrhubschrauber-2 (PAH-2) better known as the Eurocopter Tiger. There were also 100 Bö105C light observation helicopters. Wikipedia says the aircraft was selected in 1977 for its Verbindungshubschrauber (VBH) program, but not when they were delivered.

How much standardisation would there have been between the 190 UH-1Ds and 212 AH-1s purchased instead of the 212 Bö 105 PAH-1s? And according to the Wikipedia article.Would 212 Huey Cobras purchased to meet PAH-1 been good enough for the Heerflieger to not want PAH-2? According to its Wikipedia article West Germany wanted 212 Eurocopter Tigers and France wanted 215 for a total of 427 helicopters.

The original AH-1G used the Lycoming T53-L-13 turboshaft (1,400shp). The UH-1D only used the 1,100hp T53-L-11...but replacing it with the T53-L-13 was part of the upgrade from the -1D to the -1H model...which was supposedly license-built in Germany. Not entirely sure why the Germans were building UH-1Hs if they were only using UH-1Ds, but it would have been an easy upgrade (was simply an engine replacement & moving the nose pitot tube).

 

[green.nova343]

This one for the AAC & ALAT instead of the Huey Cobra?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/wg-13-lynx-attack-helicopter-projects.2212/

I like the look of that WG.13R.

 

[Hood]

I must admit I have sometimes wondered why NATO nations didn't buy Cobras during the 1970s.
Partly I suspect that it was down to wanting to develop indigenous capabilities within Europe (PAH-1, Mangusta etc.) and partly due to cost and a lack of any clear operational rationale at that time.

The one thing that might have hampered Cobra might have been the lack of roof sights. As flawed as Alouettes, Bo 105s and Lynx were, at least they could hide behind hedges and terrain, whereas Cobra with its nose-mounted sights could not.
I suspect there may have been resistance to buying TOW too, the early versions were not that good and Germany and France had already invested a lot in HOT.
Also, gunship helicopters were new and not all air forces/army air were not entirely convinced of their utility compared with armed assault transports like the S-55s used in Algeria or even the 'Hind' and 'Hip'. I don't think it was until Desert Storm really that gunship choppers became a "must buy" item on most air forces shopping lists.
Plus that large Bo 105 order probably made all the difference between MBB sticking in the helicopter business and the Bo 105 being a footnote in the history of helicopters.

In fact Cobra in its pre-'Super Cobra' guises doesn't seem to have sold all that well at all.