• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

MiG PAK DP (Prospective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Intercept) Program (MiG-41)

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,721
Reaction score
1,462
Reaper said:
The Russians have the Indians as a risk sharing partner / money provider for the T-50. I dont think that they have so much money for several different development programs at the time. At the same time why do you need a fighter intercepter design like the MiG-31 anymore?

In truth I doubt there's the money, but Russia's a big place and something fast and longe ranged would be kinda handy.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,247
Reaction score
244
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't also a plan for a dedicated LFI to replace the Mig-29 fleet? And the Pak-da programme and all the money being ploughed into UAS; thats a lot of development programmes.
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,842
Reaction score
351
no, no plans. recently confirmed by Pogosyan
 

EricChase88

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
EricChase88 said:
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=351397l

T-50 will be 2600 km/ h speed and 10 bombs in weapon bay. With this speed and bay size the Mig-31 is not needed.

No, no.


2600km/h quotes are all from 2010 mainstream news sources or sourced from these articles and come from lazy journalists looking up T-50 on wikipedia. I would put as much faith in their sources as I put in yours i.e. none.
Not true. wikipedia cite that vesti.ru link as a source. 2600 km/ h is very widely reported even before wikipedia use it.
 

Sundog

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,677
Reaction score
117
EricChase88 said:
Not true. wikipedia cite link as a source. 2600 km/ h is very widely reported even before wikipedia use it.
I have to say, I enjoy watching you argue with people who actually know how to design aircraft, work in the industry, and know more about the RuAF then you've dreamed. You're the reason CT theories are so powerful. Belief in the face of of evidence doesn't make it so no matter how much you try. But I don't blame you for thinking what you think. At every company I've worked for that hasn't been run by an engineer I've had to deal with the gulf between physics limited reality and those who think because they believe it they can just make it happen and it's just that the engineers aren't trying hard enough.
 

AeroFranz

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
46
I would also be somewhat suspicious of requirements stated in terms of "km/h", which is meaningless.
Something like M x.x @ xx,000 feet would be at least more credible.
 

Avimimus

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
1,938
Reaction score
38
EricChase88 said:
Not true. wikipedia cite that vesti.ru link as a source. 2600 km/ h is very widely reported even before wikipedia use it.
The wikipedia cites 2xGSh-301 cannons as armament and this has been widely reported.

I'd recommend asking why 2600 km/h is unlikely (or reading through the thread and seeing the argument). Doing a bit of reading on high speed aircraft research will also help - and I'm saying all of this as someone who once suggested that the PAK-FA might have been designed with growth potential for higher speeds. So, I've been where you are.
 

EricChase88

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
Composites should not have problem at high speeds. A sukhoi paper in 2006 stated difficulty in composites with high speed temperature but that was 4 years before first flight and its now 2014. Also bismalimide composites should be fine at high speed. The Yf-23 also used composites and can supercruise at mach 2 and have more than 2600 km/ h max speed so theres no reason why T-50 can't do it. There is no reason to get more powerful engines if they don't want more speed and aceleration.

http://www.vostokstation.com.au/aircraft/Sukhoi_PAK-FA_T-50.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20131025032053/http://warfare.be/db/catid/255/linkid/2280/title/pak-fa-sukhoi-t-50/

So Mikhailov once said in 2004 a speed requirement was dropped from mach 2.15 to 2. He never said it is max speed to its possible he is talking of supercruise speed. Some point to temperture limit of composite but Yf-23 also have composite and supercruise at mach 2. Also know the T-50 have complex variable inlet good to mach 3. So why would T-50 not make 2600 km/ h and supercruise at mach 2 when stage 2 engines arrive?
 

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,721
Reaction score
1,462
Sorry EricChase88, your posting rights are revoked and you are moderated. If you post something intelligent or useful I will approve it. More of the same and I won't.
 

Reaper

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
204
Reaction score
5
But seriously which program (PakDa, MiG-29 or MiG-31 replacement, UCAV) would you guess is likely the next coming out?
 

RadicalDisconnect

Anthony Foulke
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
162
Reaction score
1
I know Strategy Page is usually pretty terrible, but here's a recent article they ran on the MiG-31.

May 10, 2014: Despite problems with recently refurbished MiG-31 fighters Russia is moving forward with yet another round of fixes and improvements. In particular the D30F6 engines will be tweaked and upgraded to make them more powerful, efficient and reliable. This comes in the aftermath of two crashes (in early and late 2013) that involved these engines. In December 2013 Russia grounded all 122 of its MiG-31 fighters after one of them crashed because both of its engines failed.

What was most disturbing about recently refurbished MiG-31s crashing was that Russia was in the midst of upgrading most of its MiG-31s to the new MiG-31BM standard. This is expected to take the rest of the decade to complete. The upgrade will include a new radar with a range of 320 kilometers and the ability to simultaneously track up to 10 targets. But without reliable engines it’s all for naught.

The original upgrades come just in time as the remaining MiG-31s were in bad shape. The MiG-31 is itself an upgrade of the MiG-25 design, which was developed to deal with the American B-70 bomber. When the United States cancelled the B-70 in 1967 the Russians kept going with the MiG-25 and turned it into a reconnaissance aircraft. The B-70 got axed because it was too expensive and it was realized that the future was in bombers that came in low and fast rather than high and even faster.

The MiG-25, on the other hand turned out to be an excellent recon aircraft. Able to fly higher and faster than other fighters used for recon although not as high as the American U-2 or SR-71. But the United States did not sell those aircraft to anyone, while Russia made a lot of money selling MiG-25s to anyone with enough cash. Russia also made a lot of money training the two man crews required for each exported MiG-25.

The MiG-31 fixed a long list of MiG-25 problems and was turned into a very impressive interceptor. The 46 ton aircraft has passive sensors (which have a range of 200 kilometers) and radar guided R33 missiles, with a range of 150 kilometers. Other missiles are carried, as well as smart bombs. The MiG-31 is not very maneuverable but it is fast (able to sprint at up to 3,200 kilometers an hour). Like the original MiG-25 it does not have much range (a 720 kilometer combat radius).

The MiG-31 appeared in the 1980s and the current version, the MiG-31M, is actually an accumulation of upgrades that have been under way since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Since then, about 200 of the remaining 350 MiG-31s have been upgraded or are in line for the work. In the last few years, the MiG-31 fleet has gotten a lot more money and readiness (for combat) has gone from under 25 percent to over 75 percent. But only about 180 MiG-31s remain flyable and only 122 are actually in service. Russia is having a growing problem with obtaining sufficiently competent ground support personnel and civilian technicians that can handle upgrades and major maintenance.

About 500 MiG-31s were built in the 1980s and these aircraft remain the mainstay of Russian air defenses, at least as far as interceptors go. But the MiG-31 fleet is spread thin across Russia's vast borders and squadrons tend to be concentrated in areas where they might encounter high performance intruders (China and Europe). There are about a hundred MiG-31s in storage and these can be refurbished and upgraded if need be.

In early 2013 Russia revealed that about 16 percent of its MiG-31 interceptors were on alert at any time, ready to take off and confront aerial intruders. A larger number of the 240 Su-27s are on alert as well. The high-flying and extremely fast MiG-31s are able to catch just about any type of aircraft. The Su-27 comes along to back up the Mig-31s and protect them from any fighters. The MiG-31 is optimized for quick interception, not prolonged air combat.

In late 2013 the Russian Air Force moved a squadron of MiG-31 interceptors to the island of Novaya Zemlya. This place is 55,000 square kilometers of glaciers and tundra off the northern coast, in the Arctic Sea. It is cold up there, with the temperature above freezing (some of the time) only from mid-June to the end of September. There has been a military air base on the island since 1955, mainly to support the 224 nuclear tests (open air and underground) conducted in the area until 1975. The MiG-31 squadron joins a Su-27 squadron that has been up there since 1993. The place is a wilderness, with a total population of 2,400. Russia says it needs high performance interceptors up there to defend against bombers and cruise missiles from some NATO country or another.

Russia is covering 20,000 kilometers of land borders with fewer than 600 fighters. Worse yet, most of the Cold War era radars along the borders are elderly, unreliable and frequently off-line. The radar network is being rebuilt, but that will be taken care of more quickly than rebuilding the jet interceptor force. Actually, Russia will probably never have the Cold War size interceptor force (2,300 fighters) that existed in 1991. The only survivors of that are the MiG-31s and Su-27s.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20140510.aspx
 

paperforce

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Dont know if you guys have seen this or trust this company http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/mig-41-a-new-mach-4-fighter.html I did not see anything yet on the forums but if so then feel free to delete or move it to another location.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,512
Reaction score
579
"the new MiG will be based off of the Foxhound "
You can forget Mach 4 then.
 

jimbrooks

Flight-Sim Game Developer
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Website
www.palomino3d.org
If it flew at Mach 4, it wouldn't look a MiG-25 anymore.

For amusement, let's pretend a Mach 4 MiG-41exists.
So what's it supposed to intercept?
The proposed SR-72? But that will fly at Mach 6.
 

Kiltonge

Greetings Earthling
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
202
Reaction score
5
This modernization was to have been held back twenty years ago. However, this did not happen, so now the demands are increasing. They are including in the (increasing) the speed of the interceptor to 4-4.3 Mach, said [test pilot Anatoly] Kvočur.
http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/2/28/674956.html ( which uses a picture of the 1.44! )

So what MiG-31 projects were on the stack back in the 1990s?
 

paperforce

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Yeah I am seeing Clint Eastwood and Firefox remake in my head :)
 

abheiden

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
at mach 4 you are a straight flying non turning peace off mass.
You can make yourself stealthy on radar, but Your infrared signature is immense,
You need a lot off flares carry with you if you want to evade infrared missiles.
 

RadicalDisconnect

Anthony Foulke
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
162
Reaction score
1
A pair of articles from RIA Novosti

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140808/191851679/Russian-Deputy-Prime-Minister-Suggests-Resuming-MiG-31.html

MOSCOW, August 8 (RIA Novosti) - The production of MiG-31 interceptor aircraft should resume, as they could prove effective for another 15 years, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Friday.

“The aircraft had no rivals. That was the opinion of the Military-Industrial Commission, the Defense Ministry, the industry on the whole and even the State Duma, which used to hold special hearings on the subject of the interceptor. The production should be revived, as the jet is being upgraded. This fighter will certainly be effective for another 15 years, with its various modifications that are up to today’s military requirements,” Rogozin said.

The deputy prime minister went on to say that he believed the aircraft had big export potential and expected high demand for the MiG-31.

The MiG-31 is a long-range supersonic interceptor aircraft based on the MiG-25. The MiG-31 went into production in 1979, with some 500 delivered. In 1994, production of the jets was curtailed.
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140811/191909247/Russia-to-Start-Developing-Replacement-for-MiG-31-in-2017.html

MOSCOW, August 11 (RIA Novosti) – Russia will start developing a replacement for its MiG-31 "Foxhound" interceptors in 2017, Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev, commander of the Russian Air Force, said.

“From 2017 we will start working on a new long-range interceptor to replace MiG-31,” he said.

According to the official, the new aircraft is to enter service in 2025.

Bondarev said last year that the Russian Air Force is hoping to receive a new long-range fighter-interceptor by 2020 and retire its existing fleet of at least 122 MiG-31 interceptors by 2028.

The MiG-31 is a long-range supersonic interceptor. The two-seater aircraft can intercept targets up to 124 miles (200 kilometers) away thanks to its advanced radar and long-range missiles. It can operate efficiently in all weather conditions and is equipped with state-of-the-art digital avionics.

The MiG-31 entered service with the Soviet Air Force in 1981. Production of the aircraft ended in 1994 but MiG-31 jets remain in service in the Russian and Kazakh air forces.

On August 8, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin proposed to resume the production of the MiG-31 interceptors, saying they could be effective for another 15 years. Rogozin also stressed that the aircraft had no rivals.
 

RadicalDisconnect

Anthony Foulke
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
162
Reaction score
1
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2014-08-14/russia-developing-new-interceptor-and-progressing-bomber

Russia will fly the prototype next-generation strategic bomber in 2019 and develop a new interceptor by 2020 to replace the MiG-31 fleet. Addressing the media on Russian Air Force Day (August 12) the service’s commander Gen. Victor Bondarev also said a new a combat aircraft with forward-swept wings is in development and could emerge soon as a prototype.

Production of the PAKDA strategic bomber will start in 2021-22, with flight tests completing in 2023 so that entry-into-service can take place later that year, according to Bondarev. The commander confirmed that the new bomber is subsonic. It will eventually replace the Tu-95 and the Tu-160.

In a recent interaction with the media, head of Russia’s United Engine Corporation (ODK) Vladislav Mosolov was quoted as saying that the PAKDA’s engine will be developed on the base of the Tu-160’s NK-32 “second edition” motor and use its gas-generator (core). ODK intends to invest $220 million of its own money into the project in addition to the approved governmental funding.

The new interceptor is sometimes referred to as the MiG-41. Bondarev said it forms part of the current Russian armament program ending in 2020. Plans call for replacement of the entire MiG-31 fleet by 2028.

Meanwhile, operational examples of the Sukhoi fifth-generation fighter PAKFA (manufacturer’s designation T-50) will be delivered to the Russian air force in 2016. Today, one industry-owned T-50 already flies with military pilots at the controls in the flight-test and armament trials center (Russian acronym GLITS) at Akhtubinsk airbase in southern Russia.

Bondarev confirmed that earlier this year the Russian MoD placed an order worth more than $470 million for 16 MiG-29SMT multirole lightweight fighters. Delivery is due within “two-three years.” These will supplement 28 such aircraft already in service. Bondarev further stated that the contract for the MiG-35 will be signed later this year. The Russian air force will continue upgrade efforts on the MiG-29 fleet so as to keep them in service for “another 10 to 15 years, maybe more.”

The commander also revealed that earlier plans for a light strike aircraft based on the Yak-130 jet trainer platform have been dropped.

Bondarev expects deliveries of Il-76MD-90A strategic airlifters to commence later this year, with 39 contracted for delivery by 2020. The air force also wants to receive some Il-96 airliners, from the order for 14 placed recently by the Russian government, for delivery by 2024. The military applications would include air tanker, as well as transport roles, according to Bondarev.

The Russian air force continues to build up its presence in the Arctic region. Temp and Rogachevo aerodromes have been re-opened, and work is in progress in Tiksi, Anadyr and Vorkuta. “We must withhold that region. Almost 49 percent of the Arctic territory must belong to Russia, and we shall defend it,” Bondarev said. Plans call for complete radar coverage of Russia’s northern regions.
So additional MiG-35 orders as well.
 

Dragon029

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
709
Reaction score
46
So am I interpreting correctly from the last 2 posts that the timeline for the MiG-31 replacement will be:

2017 - final design of prototype is initiated (this does not include technologies which may have been in development for years prior)
2020 - first prototype flies
2025 - IOC?
 

Foxglove

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Feb 4, 2010
Messages
118
Reaction score
1
This isn't exactly on the topic, but I'm surprised nobody has commented yet on the fragment about a new airframe with FSW being developed ( by Sukhoi?) which I find stunning. I was convinced that the FSW concept had been dropped together with the Su-47, as the conventional layout of the later T-50 would suggest. Would Bondariev be talking about the lightweight replacement for the MiG-29, some revived variant of the LMFS or LFI? Did the Chinese achievements spur the Russians to go ahead with such a project, despite all the assertions to the contrary?
 

Dragon029

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
709
Reaction score
46
Didn't even notice that; this is just a gut feeling, but considering the requirement for stiffness, etc, my personal prediction is that this FSW fighter would likely be a light fighter (maybe the Mikoyan MLFS took a change in design direction) or just a new lead-in fighter / attack aircraft (although considering how new the YAK-130 is this wouldn't make much sense).
 

Avimimus

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
1,938
Reaction score
38
Statements intended to mislead? Or perhaps an LMFS with a FSW and some attack capability...? Alongside a PAKFA, PAKDA, drones and a Mig-31 replacement? Not what I'd predict.
 

RadicalDisconnect

Anthony Foulke
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
162
Reaction score
1
Dragon029 said:
So am I interpreting correctly from the last 2 posts that the timeline for the MiG-31 replacement will be:

2017 - final design of prototype is initiated (this does not include technologies which may have been in development for years prior)
2020 - first prototype flies
2025 - IOC?
I'm actually curious if they're planning to base this MiG-41 on the MiG-31. If so, 2025 IOC isn't unlikely. But if that's the case, I think the Mach 4.3 speed stated by Anatoliy Kvochur isn't happening.
 

totoro

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
310
Reaction score
28
Website
www.youtube.com
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=hr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fria.ru%2Fdefense_safety%2F20140811%2F1019578497.html&edit-text=&act=url

this google translation of mig31 news has some intersting sentences.
"He stressed that in 2017 will begin research work, during which determined its shape, and then go OCD."

It may be just due to bad translation, but it almost reads as if project will be greenlighted in 2017. if one wants a new plane from scratch, that means a few years of research getting all the previous theoretical tech research under one unified engineering project. then a year or two or three of prototype construction, depending how it all goes (pakfa first flight was postponed for a few years) then first flight, then 5 years later first serially produced plane.

It doesn't sound as if one might make a completely new plane in 2017-2025 timeframe. Then again, it could be Bondarev was very optimistic or it could be 2017 is start of prototype construction, and there already is a chosen engineering project existing today. What could "go OCD" mean in the translation above?

Other two options are a newly produced mig31 with new subsystems, perhaps even reengineered airframe, and a pak-fa variant somehow more optimized for mig31 role. Both of those sound like something that should be quite doable in 2017-2025 timeframe.
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
9,783
Reaction score
549
You don't feel that a Mig 7.01 derived design would be a viable option?
 

totoro

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
310
Reaction score
28
Website
www.youtube.com
Something based on 7.01 is also possible, but i'd file that under "new plane made from scratch" category, at least in terms of how long the development would take.

As far as i can read, Soviet work on 7.01 was mostly theoretical and conceptual. While overall rough design seems to have been decided upon, no real engineering work was started for the prototype. Considering how tech has advanced some 25+ years from then, a fair bit of that theoretical work would best be redone. It'd still take years longer to get the plane in service then to rework pak-fa or mig31.
 

bobbymike

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
9,400
Reaction score
434
http://www.janes.com/article/53633/russia-to-launch-mig-31-replacement-programme-before-end-of-decade
 

Steve Pace

Aviation History Writer
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
2,269
Reaction score
14
I've noticed that some of you still write Mig when it should be MiG. Just saying... -SP
 

Flyaway

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
2,792
Reaction score
606
Well the MiG-31 is still finding an export market, though not in any great numbers.

Syria reportedly receives MiG-31 interceptors from Russia

http://www.janes.com/article/53660/syria-reportedly-receives-mig-31-interceptors-from-russia
 

TomS

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,354
Reaction score
218
The sourcing on this report looks pretty dodgy.
 

flanker

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
835
Reaction score
9
And some people has been trying to convince me that Janes isnt in fact complete and utter shite...

Of course it is 100% total nonsense.
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
199
Steve Pace said:
I've noticed that some of you still write Mig when it should be MiG. Just saying... -SP
Very true, this... though I do wonder why they keep calling them this since they dropped Gurevich from the company's name quite a while ago... ::)
 

TomS

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,354
Reaction score
218
Because "Mi-x" is already taken, presumably. Also, "MiG" has amazing brand recognition...
 

XaHyMaH

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Skyblazer said:
Very true, this... though I do wonder why they keep calling them this since they dropped Gurevich from the company's name quite a while ago... ::)
No they not. You can check migavia.ru site. I think some ones just too lazy to press Shift one more time ::)
 
Top