Mig-31 and Su-27 speed limit when loaded with missiles.

[Ronny]

Long time ago, in keypublishing discussion, there was an aerodynamic engineer who mentioned that a Flanker fully loaded with air to air missile will be limited to Mach 1.7
Do anyone have a hold of Su-27 manual which mention this limit?. Will this limit affect Su-35 as well?.



Second question, I remember reading in Mig-25 manual that its speed is limited to Mach 2.35 when loaded with 4 KAB-500 bomb. Does Mig-31 have similar limit with R-33/37?

 

[paralay]

The maximum speed of the MiG-31 with R-33, R-33S and R-37 missiles is not limited. With R-40TD missiles - 2500 km/h

 

[Ronny]

The maximum speed of the MiG-31 with R-33, R-33S and R-37 missiles is not limited. With R-40TD missiles - 2500 km/h

Is that table from the manual? Where is that from bro?

 

[paralay]

The manual for the MiG-31 is not available
The flight profile of the MiG-31 to intercept a high-speed high-flying target. The speed does not exceed M = 2.35. This is probably due to ensuring the flight range

Four missiles under the fuselage do not significantly affect the aerodynamics of the interceptor. 12 pylons and 12 missiles in the Su-27 stream certainly reduce the maximum speed.

 

[paralay]

Su-27: 2 R-73 at points 7, 8 and two R-27ER at points 1,2 - without speed limits

 

[Ronny]

Su-27: 2 R-73 at points 7, 8 and two R-27ER at points 1,2 - without speed limits

Thank you, that is the Russian manual?.
To be honest, the data is so surprising to me. With just 6 R-73 on the wing, Su-27 is limited to 1300 km/h aka Mach 1.2 ???. That is insanely slow. Even an F-16 have no issue reaching Mach 2 with 6 AIM-120, it can even reach Mach 1.6 with 370 gallons tank. How come the speed restriction of Su-27 is so horrible?

 

[paralay]

This is IAS (Indicated Air Speed), the true speed TAS (True Air Speed) is much higher. IMHO

The MiG-31 has a maximum true speed no higher than that of the MiG-25, but the maximum instrument speed is already 1500 km / h, for the MiG-25 it was only 1150 km/h

 

[Ronny]

This is IAS (Indicated Air Speed), the true speed is much higher. IMHO

Are you sure about that?

The MiG-31 has a maximum true speed no higher than that of the MiG-25, but the maximum instrument speed is already 1500 km / h, for the MiG-25 it was only 1150 km/h

How come?

 

[paralay]

I'm not sure. But the thrust-to-weight ratio of modern fighters is such that it does not limit their maximum speed. I looked at the manual for the Su-27SK and found no other speed limits. Therefore, there is nothing to prove yet.

 

[Valodyana_80U]

Are you sure about that?


How come?

In simple terms, IAS means that under different air densities, the drag generated by air impacting a specific surface at different speeds is equal [under approximate conditions, with differences at hypersonic speeds], which is why IAS is often used in aviation.

 

[Squirrel]

Long time ago, in keypublishing discussion, there was an aerodynamic engineer who mentioned that a Flanker fully loaded with air to air missile will be limited to Mach 1.7
Do anyone have a hold of Su-27 manual which mention this limit?. Will this limit affect Su-35 as well?.

View attachment 694167

Second question, I remember reading in Mig-25 manual that its speed is limited to Mach 2.35 when loaded with 4 KAB-500 bomb. Does Mig-31 have similar limit with R-33/37?

From the Su-27SK F.M.

Номер варианта​	Точки подвески​
​	8​	6​	4​	10​	1​	2​	9​	3​	5​	7​
1​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	​	​	​	​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​
2​	​	​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​	​	​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​
3​	​	​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​
4​	​	​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​
5​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-27ЭР1​ (Р-27Р1)	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​
6​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​
7​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-27ЭР1​ (Р-27Р1)	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​

Ограничения по скорости в зависимости от варианта размещения ракет:

1-2 – не более 1300 км/ч;

3-7 – не более 1200 км/ч.
​

Speed limits depending on missile placement options:

1-2- no more than 1300km/h
3-7 -no more than 1200km/h

В варианте основной подвески (2хР-73Э на точках 7, 8 и 2хР-27ЭР1 (2хР-27Р1) на точках 1, 2) – без ограничений по скорости.
​

In the main suspension variant (2xR-73E at points 7, 8 and 2xR-27ER1 (2xR-27R1) at points 1, 2) – no speed restrictions.

Р-73Э​	3, 4​	Н ≤ 15000 м на V ≤ 300 – 1000 км/ч (до М = 2,2)​
Р-73Э​	5, 6, 7, 8​	Н = 15000 – 18000 м на V ≥ 650 км/ч (до М = 2,35) Н < 15000 м на V = 300 – 1100 км/ч (до М = 2,2)​
Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27ЭТ1, Р-27Р1, Р-27Т1)​	3,4​	Н = 15000 – 18000 м на V ≥ 650 км/ч (до М = 2,2) Н < 15000 м на V = 300 – 1100 км/ч (до М = 0,6-2,2)​
Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	9, 10, 2, 1​	Во всем диапазоне боевого применения на М ≥ 0,6​

Mach 1.7 is in fact limited speed for the gun.

''Стрельбу из пушки производить на Н 15000 м – на скорости 300 – 1100 км/ч (М ≤ 1,7), на Н = 15000 – 16000 м – на скорости от 450 км/ч до М = 1,7 с перегрузками 0 – 6, со скольжением не более двух диаметров шарика на всех режимах работы двигателей.''

''The gun is fired at H 15,000 m – at a speed of 300 – 1,100 km/h (M ≤ 1.7), at H = 15,000 – 16,000 m – at a speed of 450 km/h to M = 1.7 with overloads of 0 – 6, with a slip of no more than two ball diameters in all engine operating modes.''

 

[Ronny]

From the Su-27SK F.M.

Номер варианта​	Точки подвески​
​	8​	6​	4​	10​	1​	2​	9​	3​	5​	7​
1​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	​	​	​	​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​
2​	​	​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​	​	​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​
3​	​	​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​
4​	​	​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	​	​
5​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-27ЭР1​ (Р-27Р1)	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​
6​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​
7​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-27ЭР1​ (Р-27Р1)	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	Р-27ЭТ1 (Р-27Т1)​	Р-73Э​	Р-73Э​

Ограничения по скорости в зависимости от варианта размещения ракет:

1-2 – не более 1300 км/ч;

3-7 – не более 1200 км/ч.
​

Speed limits depending on missile placement options:

1-2- no more than 1300km/h
3-7 -no more than 1200km/h

В варианте основной подвески (2хР-73Э на точках 7, 8 и 2хР-27ЭР1 (2хР-27Р1) на точках 1, 2) – без ограничений по скорости.
​

In the main suspension variant (2xR-73E at points 7, 8 and 2xR-27ER1 (2xR-27R1) at points 1, 2) – no speed restrictions.

Р-73Э​	3, 4​	Н ≤ 15000 м на V ≤ 300 – 1000 км/ч (до М = 2,2)​
Р-73Э​	5, 6, 7, 8​	Н = 15000 – 18000 м на V ≥ 650 км/ч (до М = 2,35) Н < 15000 м на V = 300 – 1100 км/ч (до М = 2,2)​
Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27ЭТ1, Р-27Р1, Р-27Т1)​	3,4​	Н = 15000 – 18000 м на V ≥ 650 км/ч (до М = 2,2) Н < 15000 м на V = 300 – 1100 км/ч (до М = 0,6-2,2)​
Р-27ЭР1 (Р-27Р1)​	9, 10, 2, 1​	Во всем диапазоне боевого применения на М ≥ 0,6​

Mach 1.7 is in fact limited speed for the gun.

''Стрельбу из пушки производить на Н 15000 м – на скорости 300 – 1100 км/ч (М ≤ 1,7), на Н = 15000 – 16000 м – на скорости от 450 км/ч до М = 1,7 с перегрузками 0 – 6, со скольжением не более двух диаметров шарика на всех режимах работы двигателей.''

''The gun is fired at H 15,000 m – at a speed of 300 – 1,100 km/h (M ≤ 1.7), at H = 15,000 – 16,000 m – at a speed of 450 km/h to M = 1.7 with overloads of 0 – 6, with a slip of no more than two ball diameters in all engine operating modes.''

Thank you, I actually already have the manual. I just don't know the value they gave is IAS (indicated air speed) or TAS (true air speed)