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MiG-21 Avionics

overscan (PaulMM)

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There's a really great technical description of the MiG-21 weapons systems here in German:

http://www.mig-21-online.de/Funkmessvisier/funkmessvisier.htm

MiG-21Bis RP-22SMA radar description in Polish
www.flyshark.republika.pl/Samoloty_pliki/merlin.htm

Some animations of radar screens

http://www.21club.neostrada.pl/rp21_mig21pfm.html
http://www.21club.neostrada.pl/rp22sma.html
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Translation by Lezlek with some additional input from me. Posted at acig.org.
The pilot controls the RP-22SMA radar with the help of switches and light-buttons placed on the block 19, 19a and 19b control panels. The control panel block 19 (on the right side of the cockpit):



Switch #1 is a three-position switch used to turn on and off the radar. In the lowest position the radar is off. In the mid position the radar is preparing for operation (3.5 – 5 min). In the top position the radar is on.After the RADAR is turned on (the switch is in the top position) a red light APCh should turn on, and off. If the light fails to turn back off, the RADAR is not operational. Aside from that, the RADAR screen should light up.

Switch #2 is a three-position switch used to control the "compensation channel" and height of the beam. In the lowest possition the RADAR works in the standard regime. In the mid position, the compensation channel is turned on. In the top position the compensation channel is turned on, and the lower border of the scaning beam is lifted by +1.5 to +2deg over the horizon (this mode is reserved for low altitude intercepts).

Switch #3 is a two-position switch, which controls the "locked beam" mode. In the lower position the "locked beam" mode is off. In the upper position the beam is locked in 0 deg in azimuth and –1.5 deg in elevation. A green light over the switch signals this. This mode is used for launching Kh-66 beamriding radar guided missiles against ground targets.

This panel is located directly over the radar scope. On it, there are red light-buttons (if a button is pressed it lights up). Turning the light-button controls the brightness (The pic shows maximum brightness)



Button 1 – "interrogate" – turns on the IFF system

Button 2 – "msc" – turns on the "speed selection" mode used to attack low speed targets

Button 3 – "control" – automatic testing of the whole set

Button 4 – "break-lock" – breaks a lock and returns to scan mode

Button 5 – "meteo" – turns on the mode for compensating for difficult weather conditions

Button 6 – "pass" – anti-passive jamming mode

Buttons 7 and 8 – more anti-jamming modes



Panel 19b is only used in wartime. (No info)

SEARCH MODE
In the search mode, the radar scans +-28 degrees in azimuth and +-17 deg 40 min in elevation. Max range is 30km. The radar display shows the range and azimuth of the target. With the help of "higher" and "lower" marks, in pitch ranging from –25 to +8 degrees, it displays the altitude difference. The display also shows the IFF status of the contact. Search mode gates the target before lock.



The RP-22 scope in scan mode
1. Friendly target (if the IFF is on)
2. Foe target (if the IFF is on)
3. A target below our plane
4. Gate. It is controled by the pilot, using a switch on the throttle. The target has to be between the two horizontal lines to be locked
5. A target above our plane
6. A target on the same altitude
9. This light is on, when the RADAR is working in track mode, in active jamming conditions
10. Red light, which warns if the RADAR is inoperational. It (RP-22) has to be turned off immediately if so





This is an ideal situation. In normal conditions there are dozens of smaller and bigger bright dots, and a couple of false targets (clouds, etc.). A pilot has to guess which target is the real one, utilising information from the navigator and different onboard devices. On the 1st pic the target is 10km away. On the second one, it is 5km away, and the pilot should be able to get a lock. To do that, he must press a button on the stick.

TRACK MODE

In the intercept (automatic track) mode, the scope displays the azimuth and elevation of the target, the range, the allowed launch zone, and calculates the range of the break-away.



RADAR scope in track mode.
1. The range of azimuths allowed in the intercept
2. Range markers
3. Minimum allowed launch range
4. Aiming mark
5. Aiming ring
6. Max allowed launch range
7. "Seeker ready" light. This light is on, and the pilot hears a tone in the headphones when the missile has locked on the target 8. "Launch" light. Optimal launch conditions have been met. The pilot may launch
9. "Breakaway" light – the pilot must immediately break the attack.



When using the LAZUR automatic guidance system, the three lights indicated give the direction to target. In the picture, the target it to the right (light #3 is on). Light number #1 indicates the target is on the left, and light #2 that the target is directly in front of us.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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The MiG-21 used the TsD-30 and Sapfir-21 radars. The TsD-30 started out on the Su-9.

RP-9 TsD-30S (first 120 Su-9)
RP-9U (Su-9) RP-21 (MiG-21PF) TsD-30T Izdeliyie 830M?
RP-21M TsD-30TK Izdeliyie 830M (WarPac MiG-21PFM)
RP-21MA TsD-30TP Izdeliyie 830MA (Soviet MiG-21PFM, export MiG-21M/MF)
RP-22S Sapfir-21 (MiG-21S)
RP-22SM Sapfir-21M (MiG-21SM)
RP-22SMA Sapfir-21M (export MiG-21Bis at least)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Crossiath, I posted that site at the top of the thread.

I don't think RP-22 was used on export MiG-21 until MiG-21Bis, but Yefim Gordon suggests it was used on MiG-21MF.
 

crossiathh

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overscan said:
Crossiath, I posted that site at the top of the thread.
I'm sorry, read over this.

The RP-22SMA was use in the MiG-21bis only with the LSK/LV.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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No probs, I believe you over Gordon. If anyone's MF had RP-22, it would be WarPac ones.

If any German speakers get a chance to post info from that site, I'd be grateful, or I will do a machine translation later. It has very detailed info on the radar similar to that we have uncovered for the Sapfir-23.
 

mrdetonator

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That`s correct the export(also Czechoslovakian) versions of Mig-21MF were fitted with the RP-21MA, the PFM with RP-21M, the PF with RP-21, but all manuals translated from soviet originals are saying the RP-21,RP-21M,RP-21MA was used in the Mig-21PF !!, isn`t that interesting? I also read that the RP-21M was introduced in july 1964 when the serial production started and the RP-21MA was supposedly produced from 1968. Try to compare those years with production dates of Mig-21PFM and MF. Gordon might be right, these were typical manners of Soviets, not to equip export aircrafts with "high-end" products. So, please do not blame him(Gordon) for that.... ;)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The RP-21 radar was used on the MiG-21PF, constructed from 1962 - 1964 for VVS, then 1964-1968 for export.
The RP-21M radar was used on the MiG-21PFM/PFS, constructed from 1964 - 1965 for VVS, then 1966 - 1968 for export.

The RP-21 series was ended in Soviet service with the introduction of the MiG-21S in 1965 with the RP-22S (Sapfir-21) radar.
In 1968, the MiG-21SM with RP-22SM radar was introduced. At this time, the MiG-21M export version entered production with RP-21MA, a minor revision of the RP-21M of the MiG-21PFM.

This is all quite logical, and clear. The problem is Gordon, and Belyakov in MiG 1939-1989, both say that the 1970 MiG-21MF introduced the RP-22S radar. As MiG-21MF was an export only version, it can't be the case that Soviet MFs used RP-22S and export ones used RP-21MA, as there was no "Soviet MF" variant. Clearly, WarPac allies didn't get RP-22S with their MiG-21MF, so this is definitely a mistake. The major difference between M and MF then is really the use of an R-13-300 engine in MiG-21MF rather than the R-11F2S-300 of MiG-21M?

What about the "MF-75" variant?

The RP-22S Sapfir-21 wasn't exported until the MiG-21bis, which was produced from 1972. East Germany didn't get its first MiG-21bis and hence its first RP-22 radar until 1975, 10 whole years after the MiG-21S introduced the Sapfir-21 in Soviet service. Poland didn't get MiG-21Bis until 1980(!), and Czechoslovakia never got the MiG-21bis, though they did get some of the "MF-75" transitional models.
 

mrdetonator

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The problem is Gordon, and Belyakov in MiG 1939-1989, both say that the 1970 MiG-21MF introduced the RP-22S radar.
The problem I`m getting here is not the claim the RP-22S radar being installed on the export version Mig-21MF "96F", but to identify the designation "96F" itself. I`ve looked into books and publications and most of them are copying this one. The Mig-21, part2, E.Gordon,V. Klimov, published by Kryla Rodiny, 1994. A small exception is the Polish "PKL publication" Mig-21 where is mentioned about a downgraded export version of the Mig-21MF(96A)!! with the RP-21MA.
In fact, I`ve found the Mig-21MF under designation "Samolyot96A with izdelie 95", that`s what the aircraft documentation is saying. The "izdelie95" is the engine R-13-F300 fitted in all Mig-21MF. Before the MF version we received 24 pieces of the Mig-21MA(variant A) or the "Samolyot96A with the izdelie 37F-2S" where the "izdelie 37F-2S" is the R-11F2S-300 engine. I know that after 600flight hours during the SO (semi-overhaul) in LOK Prague, the R-11F2S-300 engines were replaced with more powerfull R-13-F300 and aicrafts have been redesigned to Mig-21MF.
The designation for the Mig-21R was similar, the Mig-21RA (samolyot 94RA with izdelie 37F-2S), but here the "A" letter vanished from the service life. The people got used saying the Mig-21MA and the Mig-21R. I have to look more Mig-21MF aircraft documentations to check the "96F".
What about the "MF-75" variant?
The last batch of Migs-21MF (20pcs, product.date 1975, Gorkyi plant) came painted in a greyish color scheme. After 1993 they all remained in Czech republic as a partial compensation for that we wanted to split the Mig-29 fleet equally and then Czechs took all Floggers. Czechs grounded these "last" Fishbeds in 2005. The cockpit panels were almost the same as on Mig-21bis, that`s true. What else?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The MiG-21MF-75 had the MiG-21bis cockpit layout- but did it have any avionics changes? It had a whole new Ideliyie, 63.

Izdeliyie 96 is the MiG-21M with R-11F2S-300

Izdeliyie 96A has been given as MiG-21M. I think its the typical WarPac -A suffix.

Izdeliyie 96F is given by Belyakov and Gordon as the designation for the MiG-21MF with R-13-300.

Ideliyie 96B is supposed to be the designation of Indian MiG-21MFs supplied by the USSR with R-13-300.

I think that 96A = WarPac MiG-21M/MF, 96B = Third World MiG-21M/MF, and the engine type is the differentiator between MIG-21M and MiG-21MF. Type 96F might then be something like a Mikoyan designation for the program of upgrade of the type 96 with R-13-300, while the actual designations of the MiG-21MF aircraft were "Type 96A with engine XX" and "Type 96B with engine XX".
 

mrdetonator

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The MF-75 version had a different radio set installed on the left panel side, the R-832M instead of the RSIU-5. The "rest" remained the same (RP-21MA screen with control panel, ..etc.), but the placement of the panels/instruments changed, it resembled the Mig-21BIS and it is clearly visible, see the example. I heard that there were also differencies in the fuel system,but do not know details, I`ll ask some friends.

1. Mig-21MF, manual

2. Slovak Mig-21MF

3. Czech Mig-21MF-75

4. Serbian Mig-21bis
 

mrdetonator

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overscan said:
I think that 96A = WarPac MiG-21M/MF, 96B = Third World MiG-21M/MF, and the engine type is the differentiator between MIG-21M and MiG-21MF. Type 96F might then be something like a Mikoyan designation for the program of upgrade of the type 96 with R-13-300, while the actual designations of the MiG-21MF aircraft were "Type 96A with engine XX" and "Type 96B with engine XX".
In the meanwhile I`ve seen documentation of another two "pure" Mig-21MF, built in 1973. The designation is "izdelie 96A with izdelie95". Also some other Mig-21MF instruction manuals I haven`t seen before are stating the same. Well, it seems that you were right, the "96F" might just be an internal designation of the producer.
 

jojo

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Does someone know how can I download Flash movies to be able to watch them off-line?
 

JCage

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Jojo,

Try this:

http://keepvid.com/

Also

Google with the keywords "SWF player" to search for a software to play the downloaded flash movie

Hope it helps!
 

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MiG-21F13's SRD-5MK range-finding radar:



Source:
MiG-21 in Finnish Air Force, page 65
 

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Does anyone have pictures of the RP-21 "Spin Scan" radar? I'm looking for any design relations with the Chinese JL-7 radar, as shown in their MiG-21MF equivalent, the J-7C/D series.
 

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crossiathh

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Tam said:
Does anyone have pictures of the RP-21 "Spin Scan" radar? I'm looking for any design relations with the Chinese JL-7 radar, as shown in their MiG-21MF equivalent, the J-7C/D series.

Well a part of it. Definitely different.
 

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Tam

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Thanks. It looks the antenna is true to the name "spin scan", so it should use conical scan to derive angular resolution, while the JL-7 requires a two pass scan to get angular resolution with a parabolic antenna.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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TsD-30 / RP-21 / RP-9
NATO "Spin Scan"
OKB-1
Chief Designer: A A Kolosov

RP-21 radar?
TsD-30 / RP-21 / RP-9

The working principle of the RP-21 relies on a continuously transmitting antenna that is moved mechanically in horizontal lines +/-30° from the centerline as well as vertically +/- 10° . The maximum detection range is 20 km with a maximum of 10 km for locking on for a Tu-16 sized target. Performance against a fighter is 13 km and 7 km respectively.

TsD-30T / RP-21 / RP-9U was fitted to early model MiG-21PF and Su-9. RP-21 had 4 operating modes- 'Search', 'Acquisition','Pursuit', 'Taking Aim'. The antenna is gyro-stabilized between +/-60° of bank and +/- 40° of pitch.

TsD-30TP / RP-21M / RP-9UK fitted to late model (aircraft c/n 76210703 onwards) MiG-21PF/PFM and late model Su-9. The TsD-30TP had jamming protection, a roll-stabilized antenna and a larger position display. An additional feature of the TsD-30TP radar was the fixed-beam target illumination function, which allowed use of K-5 AAMs.

RP-21MA export version of RP-21M, equipped some MiG-21M export version (possibly WarPac)

RP-21ML export version of RP-21M, equipped some MiG-21M export version (possibly non-WarPac nations)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to Yefim Gordon, MiG-23MS used an Almaz-23 (Sapfir-21) weapons system.

Would be worth getting confirmation on that however. Its possible the very first MiG-23MS deliveries used RP-21 not RP-22. Generally, Soviet policy was never to export the current technology level. Thus while the Soviets used RP-22 Sapfir-21, export MiG-21s used RP-21. By the mid 1970s with MiG-23 deliveries rolling, Sapfir-21 was no longer their current technology. Sapfir-21 was in fact only exported on the MiG-21bis to Warpac countries in 1975, so with MiG-23MS deliveries to Syria in late 1973 its possible they got the older radar. Certainly Syria (and Egypt) were bitterly disappointed with the fact the MiG-23MS was a less agile airframe partnered with the MiG-21s weapons systems and hence no real advance at all.
 

mrdetonator

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overscan said:
According to Yefim Gordon, MiG-23MS used an Almaz-23 (Sapfir-21) weapons system.

Would be worth getting confirmation on that however. Its possible the very first MiG-23MS deliveries used RP-21 not RP-22. Generally, Soviet policy was never to export the current technology level. Thus while the Soviets used RP-22 Sapfir-21, export MiG-21s used RP-21. By the mid 1970s with MiG-23 deliveries rolling, Sapfir-21 was no longer their current technology. Sapfir-21 was in fact only exported on the MiG-21bis to Warpac countries in 1975, so with MiG-23MS deliveries to Syria in late 1973 its possible they got the older radar. Certainly Syria (and Egypt) were bitterly disappointed with the fact the MiG-23MS was a less agile airframe partnered with the MiG-21s weapons systems and hence no real advance at all.
Well, do not know exact answer, but have suggestions you might want to try. Find pictures of R-3R missile carried on the wing of the Syrian, Iraqi or Egyptian Mig-23MS and you prove the presence of the RP-22 radar in export versions Mig-23MS. Look for the APU-13U-2 which is the only one launch rail the R-3R could be fired from. These are pictures from the Mig-21 Polish PKL publication, check the APU-13U-2 compared to the APU-13MT with R-13M missile.
The APU-13U-2 lauch rail was used with the Mig-23U to fire the R-3S missiles only, that`s what the weapon manual of Mig-23U is saying. Interesting, isn`t it?

P.S. I found also a R3R atached to a mig-23 wing pylon, but do not have idea where is this picture comming from.
 

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lancer21

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Speaking of the R-3R on Mig-23MS, i definetly saw a pic of one , i think number 85 or 86 , in soviet markings , armed with R-3R and R-3S...if i'm correct the caption mentioned something about a finnish visit...if i find it , i'll post it ...

I've never seen a pic of a MS with anything but APU-13 and/or APU-13MT adaptors , the APU-13 is aparently same for the R-3S and R-3Rs...never seen anything like an APU-7 on the Mig-23MS , and i think its safe to asume that they indeed have the RP-22...still, to be 100%sure someone needs to get the radome off that chinese Mig-23MS for instance!!! OR maby someone in US can do that , what do the americans have to say about the mig-23MS they tested there, do they identify the radar as a RP-22 Jay Bird ?

Anyway , sorry for going more Mig-23-ish in a Mig-21 topic! I have a little question, may i ask , what is the Izdeliye number of the RP-22? Thank you.
 

mrdetonator

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lancer21 said:
Speaking of the R-3R on Mig-23MS, i definetly saw a pic of one , i think number 85 or 86 , in soviet markings , armed with R-3R and R-3S...if i'm correct the caption mentioned something about a finnish visit...if i find it , i'll post it ...

I've never seen a pic of a MS with anything but APU-13 and/or APU-13MT adaptors , the APU-13 is aparently same for the R-3S and R-3Rs...never seen anything like an APU-7 on the Mig-23MS , and i think its safe to asume that they indeed have the RP-22...still, to be 100%sure someone needs to get the radome off that chinese Mig-23MS for instance!!! OR maby someone in US can do that , what do the americans have to say about the mig-23MS they tested there, do they identify the radar as a RP-22 Jay Bird ?

Anyway , sorry for going more Mig-23-ish in a Mig-21 topic! I have a little question, may i ask , what is the Izdeliye number of the RP-22? Thank you.

Hi lancer21,

I`ve noticed your Su-9/R-55 topic but decided to post here since the same missile R-55 was used with the Mig-21bis aircrafts as well. I`m not sure whether the R-55 was ever exported to WP members like Poland, Hungary, East Germany using the Mig-21Bis variants, bcs I do not remember to have seen a picture of a Mig-21 armed with that IR missile. I found some good info about the R-55 here. http://www.missiles.ru/k5.htm also a friend of mine from Hungarian AF posted once a small extract from Mig-21bis manual showing the R-55 usage limitations.(check pic below)
Regarding question about the RP-22 i cant help much bcs the "Izdeliye" designation has been very rarely seen and I must admit that I never have found similar "Izdeliye" designation in any RP-21/RP-21M/RP-21MA documentation I have.There is a mess with the RP-21 designation as well...

RP-21 TsD-30
RP-21 TsD-30T izd.820? early soviet model MiG-21PF and Su-9.
RP-21 TsD-30TP izd. 830? late soviet models MiG-21PF/PFM and late model Su-9
RP-21 TsD-30TPM (all radar blocks have suffix designation TPM), using PKI gun sight on WarPAc pact Mig-21PF or late soviet Mig-21PF/PFM
RP-21M TsD-30TK (improved radar blocks changed designation from TPM to TK) ,using PKI gun sight on WarPac Mig-21PF/PFM or late soviet Mig-21PF/PFM
RP-21MA TsD-30A (improved radar blocks changed designation from TK to A), using the ASP-PF -21 optical sight on WarPac Mig-21M/MF.
RP-22S Sapfir-21 fitted to soviet only Mig-21S/SM (a/c equals to WP Mig-21M/MF) using the ASP-PF -21 optical sight
RP-22SM Sapfir-21M fitted to soviet only Mig-21BIS (a/c equals to WP Mig-21BIS) using the ASP-PF -21 optical sight
RP-22SMA Sapfir-21M fitted to WarPac Mig-21BIS

Thanks for reviving this old thread anyway.
 

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lancer21

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Thank you for your reply Mrdetonator, it is a very interesting read!

I'm surprised to find out that actually the R-55M was used on the Su-24 from the mid seventies ( i knew that the Su-24 was able to carry the R-55...), previous info i had stated that the M was just a much modified R-55 project...any photos by any chance ? ( i know a very very slim chance ... ;D)

As for the Mig-21 , no i never seen anything to suggest that this missile was ever exported to WP, wouldnt make much sense anyway as the Bis was useing already 2nd gen IR missiles( R-13M) , better than the R-55...it was SUPOSED to be carried on APU-68 adaptors, and it was even known as the super-missile among aircrew , but was never sold...otherwise we ought to see one by now , isnt it ???

About the RP-21 , dont forget the R1L/R2L designations too! :D

And finally, just for my own piece of mind , after reading several books/articles over the Mig-21 subject by very reputed sources/authors, i'd like to say that gentlemen for gods sake , the Mig-21MF NEVER had an RP-22 Jay Bird radar!!! Phew that felt nice.
 

lancer21

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Tam said:
Does anyone have pictures of the RP-21 "Spin Scan" radar? I'm looking for any design relations with the Chinese JL-7 radar, as shown in their MiG-21MF equivalent, the J-7C/D series.

Well i'm not sure about the back end , but the antenna of this radar looks almost the same as the one of the AN/APQ-153 radar from the F-5E...might be possible that JL-7 benefited from considerable western/american expertise as in about the same timescale as the J-7 III was developed China and the West were into their "honeymoon" period ...

Speaking of which, does anyone has a pic of the GEC-marconi Skyranger used in the F-7M please ? didnt found anything online , tho i'm sure i saw a pic of one loooong tim ago ( 7 yeras) when i was a conscript in the Romanian army and somehow i got to read these so interesting magazines collections they had , Jane's defence weekly, Filght international and many more ...ah the good old days!
 

mrdetonator

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lancer21 said:
As for the Mig-21 , no i never seen anything to suggest that this missile was ever exported to WP, wouldnt make much sense anyway as the Bis was useing already 2nd gen IR missiles( R-13M) , better than the R-55...it was SUPOSED to be carried on APU-68 adaptors, and it was even known as the super-missile among aircrew , but was never sold...otherwise we ought to see one by now , isnt it ???

About the RP-21 , dont forget the R1L/R2L designations too! :D

And finally, just for my own piece of mind , after reading several books/articles over the Mig-21 subject by very reputed sources/authors, i'd like to say that gentlemen for gods sake , the Mig-21MF NEVER had an RP-22 Jay Bird radar!!! Phew that felt nice.

Correct me if I`m wrong but the seeker cooled R-13M appeared in mid seventies, how could they be using it in late sixties? According to www.missiles.ru the R-55 had a lock-on range 15km against TU-16 like target. That`s better than the uncooled R-3S(R-13), therefore I think the R-55 was mostly used in the PVO with interceptors like Su-9,11, or the Mig-21bis even if in less numbers. I agree the R-55 missile had its own glitches, some fixed later with the R-55M, but I dare to say that in late sixties it has been a decent addition otherwise they would never put it in to regular service. Anyway, still looking for pictures of Mig-21bis with the R-55, so far no luck.

I`m not familiar with the R1L/R2L designation, probably some kind of screwed-up designation used in some non-Warsaw pact countries.

And finally, just for my own piece of mind , after reading several books/articles over the Mig-21 subject by very reputed sources/authors, i'd like to say that gentlemen for gods sake , the Mig-21MF NEVER had an RP-22 Jay Bird radar!!! Phew that felt nice.

Yeah, maybe an obvious thing for someone working with the Migs-21, but please reveal where YOU got that confidence that among those several hundreds produced Mig-21MF cant be some with the RP-22? ;)

regards
D
 

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Hi Mrdetonator,

Well i should start by saying that i'm not some aviation writer or researcher , but an enthusiast...however , you dont have to be any of that to put two and two together, and i'm spending quite alot of time trying to do just that !

Rp-22 on Mig-21 MF for instance...i was actually thinking to find various links ( czech, polish etc), and quote some places where i've read about it ...but most of them are already in the posts above. But just for the fun of it , if you take it logically...
-is there anywhere a pic of the RP-22 on the Mig-21MF?
-is there anywhere in the Mig-21 MF manual anything about RP-22?
-would you believe polish or czech or hungarian or romanian ( in my case)sources who state that THEIR Mig-21MF never had RP-22s, rather that beliveing someone from the western world, even if he's haveing the best of intentions? one of the funniest things i've seen on this matter is in a very good otherwise Mig-21 walkaround book...all is good until the radar , so here we have radar pics from the german museum at OBERSCHLEISSHEIM , clearly the radar is an RP-21 ..well not for the author , and he goes in every damn caption of the radar with Rp-22 Jay Bird this , Rp-22 that! would have been much simpler if he would have read the plate ! and off course not to mention Mr Gordon , a great author , but somethimes one wishes he would just check a bit more his sources ( wanna hear a story about the chinese Mig-29 purchased from ROMANIA???)

Perhaps i should state in fairness here that this Mig-21MF and Jay Bird thing started over 30 years ago in the Cold war ...contemporay publication always state this, understandable at that time, but not so understandable for an aviation publication on the Mig-21 from only few years ago!

Thinking logically again even if SOME MFs have indeed RP-22, wouldnt be logical to assume that they would have at least a different designation from such an important modification ? And off course, as asked many times before , does anyone ever saw a pic of a MF with R-3Rs?

Here's are couple of pics of the Rp-22 , saved on my comp from various places...then one of the Rp-21 from the german museum..huge differences...
 

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...As for the R-55, well if i got it right it was intended to be a cheap upgrade of the K-51 with IR seeker ( they toyed with the idea of K-13s on the Su-9 , but they thought the K-55 would be more straightforward), there were actually two designs K-55 and K-88, ironically they choosed the K-55 because again it was thought it would take less to develop it...off course the K-55 trials dragged for a loooong time (various problems , fuse , warhead etc), and it wasnt until 1967 that it went into service as we know, even if i think the initial order for the project was given in 1959 and was suposed to be expediently completed! Fate eh ? ;D

The seeker was as i can make out a slightly enlarged version of the K-13 one , hence higher detection range...the K-13M on the other hand ,i've read that the order for its developement was given in 1962! from what i know it featured an Iney cooled seeker, longer range, and was introduced in 1972( oficial acceptance in 1974)...the Mig-21Bis was slated from the start to carry it... looking forward to pics of the Bis with R-55s too!

A note here , the Su-11 never carried R-55s, it had and Oryol radar and two R-8M( AA-3 Anab) missiles as it armament...


Oh and finally, do let me know if you find a Mig-21MF with RP-22 , so that i will hapilly eat my foot! :D
 

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lancer21 said:
Hi Mrdetonator,

Well i should start by saying that i'm not some aviation writer or researcher , but an enthusiast...however , you dont have to be any of that to put two and two together, and i'm spending quite alot of time trying to do just that !

Rp-22 on Mig-21 MF for instance...i was actually thinking to find various links ( czech, polish etc), and quote some places where i've read about it ...but most of them are already in the posts above. But just for the fun of it , if you take it logically...
-is there anywhere a pic of the RP-22 on the Mig-21MF?
-is there anywhere in the Mig-21 MF manual anything about RP-22?
-would you believe polish or czech or hungarian or romanian ( in my case)sources who state that THEIR Mig-21MF never had RP-22s, rather that beliveing someone from the western world, even if he's haveing the best of intentions? one of the funniest things i've seen on this matter is in a very good otherwise Mig-21 walkaround book...all is good until the radar , so here we have radar pics from the german museum at OBERSCHLEISSHEIM , clearly the radar is an RP-21 ..well not for the author , and he goes in every damn caption of the radar with Rp-22 Jay Bird this , Rp-22 that! would have been much simpler if he would have read the plate ! and off course not to mention Mr Gordon , a great author , but somethimes one wishes he would just check a bit more his sources ( wanna hear a story about the chinese Mig-29 purchased from ROMANIA???)

Perhaps i should state in fairness here that this Mig-21MF and Jay Bird thing started over 30 years ago in the Cold war ...contemporay publication always state this, understandable at that time, but not so understandable for an aviation publication on the Mig-21 from only few years ago!

Thinking logically again even if SOME MFs have indeed RP-22, wouldnt be logical to assume that they would have at least a different designation from such an important modification ? And off course, as asked many times before , does anyone ever saw a pic of a MF with R-3Rs?

Here's are couple of pics of the Rp-22 , saved on my comp from various places...then one of the Rp-21 from the german museum..huge differences...

Hi Lancer
Please do not get me wrong, I was just curious how you got to the point of being so sure. You have to be a very smart observer to figure that out by just putting two and two together when considering you are an enthusiast. ;) Many sources including Russian ones are stating that the known designation izd.96F denoting the type Mig-21MF has been fitted with Sapfir-21(RP-22) and re-engined with more powerful R13-300, whereas the older Mig-21M(izd. 96) was using the older RP-21MA with the R11F2S-300. I agree that there are false claims which aviation writers keep repeating and I;m not sure who started that misinformation, but as you pointed out "the great" author Mr. Gordon keeps repeating that as well. I have no doubts that Warsaw Pact Migs-21MF were using the RP-21MA radar and having that verified by myself in our museum and Mig-21MF aircrafts documents many times. Moreover, former Russian technicians confirm that the Migs-21MF produced for the VVS SSSR in 1975 Gorkyi aviation plant have been equipped with the same RP-21MA type of radar.
How would you then explain that pure Migs-21MF exported to WP countries are having designation Izd.96A written in documents instead of the Izd.96F while fitted with the R13-300 from the beginning? Look an example, the Mig-21MF "9713" produced in Znamaya. Truda plant in 1974. The Izd. 95 is the code for R13-300 engine. Also an old Polish publication is mentioning shortly that WP countries were buying crippled version of the Mig-21MF Izd.96F, one designated the Izd.96A. What a coincidence? What if original documents from OKB Mig stated the Mig-21MF had been designed with the RP-22, but later in production they changed back to RP-21. Just my theory.
 

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mrdetonator

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lancer21 said:
...the Mig-21Bis was slated from the start to carry it... looking forward to pics of the Bis with R-55s too!

Have you noticed that Mig-21Bis cockpits including export examples(Hungarian, Polish, Serbian) are equipped with lights to signalize left/right R-55 seeker head "lock-on". Still looking for photos of Soviet Bis with the R-55.
 

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Mrdetonator obviously you have more info at hand than me , including the ability to see the real thing , which kinda beats everything!

Sorry hope i havent been too abrasive , was just trying to best explain my POV...interesting info from that book ( i think i might have it ...gotta look it up) , but i also have books stating exactly the oposite ...doubtless one or the other is wrong! so how can one diferentiate which one is right and wrong ? So i guess until proved otherwise, i'd be sure enough for now to asume that the MF most likely didnt had RP-22s...

Regarding the MF 9713...what country is it from ? do you have a logbook for a 96F aswell? (i'm asking because the first thing i'm thinking is that the czech re-engined some of their Ms with R-13-300...but offcourse , the M production ended in 1971 ... ??? )

As for the Mig-21Bis R-55 switch , no i dont know every button in the thing ( altho that image is quite self-explanatory) , tho i'm just as eager to see a Bis with an R-55!
 

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Thanks, yes it looks familiar , i've seen it before but cant remember if it was maby on a forum or even in Y.Gordons book! Gotta look again ...

Mind you , the drawing skills of the peoples who made that manual are not exactly great... ;D

Edit: no its not in Gordon's ,probably it was a polish forum...
 

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Thats brilliant , thanks for these!!! :eek:

Howevere the knit picking me cant abstain not to mentions that the a/c is a PFM , and the misiles are training rounds ...it seems likley that the guys from that museum just hanged them under the Migs wing for show ( happened many times before...), its unlikely that this might have been an operational loadout( altho it makes some sense, IMO i'd rather have two of these instead of two K-51s!)

Good luck finding some operational pictures of Mig-21s with these missiles, i'm eager to see them aswell!
 

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