Mario Zippermayr "Pfeil Flugzeug"

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Hi i found this aircraft in this forum by chance, and the i liked the unusual look of the model especially the wings, so i decided that i'll work on it, here is a Wip of the model after 40min of work, i've took snapshots from a book in Googlebooks to have references.
 

Attachments

  • 12.jpg
    12.jpg
    125.2 KB · Views: 894

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
here is some progress

the main annoying thing is that: can an aircraft use the same controls for either roll and pitch? or that control was for pitch and there is another one for roll such those used in sacks semi circular wing aircraft or used in the flying flounder.

cheers
 

Attachments

  • 13.jpg
    13.jpg
    570 KB · Views: 746

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,226
Reaction score
767
Re: Mario Zippermayr "Pfiel Flugzeug"

Taking shape nicely...

I think you made a typo in the title, which should read "Pfeil" (arrow) instead of Pfiel... Can you fix it?
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
I don't if the Pfeil is metal or wood covered, and this would mean that there will be or not rivets, so i need your opinion on that.

Thanking you in advance

Cheers
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Orthographic (WIP) render of the Pfeil Flugzeug with the photo of the possible constructed model at Lofer, Germany.
 

Attachments

  • orthopresentation.jpg
    orthopresentation.jpg
    219.6 KB · Views: 95

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
thanks Stargazer ;)

Yes Jemiba, i noticed the cockpit shape stuff but i worked with that blueprint (see attachment), and it was the model Mario proposed to the US airforce as a parasite rocket supersonic interceptor.
the presentation i did didn't claim to be inspired from the photo but a model of the same configuration, i hope you understand me.

Regards.
 

Attachments

  • Untitled-2.jpg
    Untitled-2.jpg
    32.6 KB · Views: 55

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,319
Reaction score
1,403
Ah, ok ! Perhaps you should just use that blueprint as background ?
Would look great, too, I think. Perhaps the Pfeil should have a different
paint scheme then.
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Yeah, that would look cool too , but i wanted a real photo as background. and if you've any suggestion about the paint scheme feel free to share it with that could be intresting ;)

Cheers
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,319
Reaction score
1,403
Well done ! You should just correct the typo ("AUFSTIEG" instead of "AUFTSIEG"".
And a well chosen title with a positive double meaning. ;)
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Hi everyone ! the latest render imposed a question can such a shape rocket powered break the sound barrier?

Well, i'd like to prove it so i need you guys suggestions, i thought about using a CFD software, so i've to remodel the aircraft inside it then simulate. now if there is any other mean to figure out if the Pfeil can reach supersonic speed please let me know.

Thanking you in anticipation for your help
 

Arjen

It's turtles all the way down
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,891
Reaction score
854
...if you don't mind breaking the *Anything*.
 

Attachments

  • Anything.jpg
    Anything.jpg
    8.3 KB · Views: 309

Orionblamblam

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
8,374
Reaction score
2,276
Website
www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com
Arjen said:
...if you don't mind breaking the *Anything*.

That particular "anything" looks like just the perfect thing. Take a hammer, mash it into powder and mix into some more ceramic, form it into a nose cone or perhaps a rocket nozzle, and you have something *worthy* of busting Mach 1. As it is, it's a horrid and tacky reminder of a disturbing period in European history when "effete" competed with "bloodthirsty" under the aegis of aristocratic tyrrany. Feh.
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Ya, i know anything can go supersonic you just have to push as hard as the drag, well i made a model in solidworks with lenght of two meters and i got at Mach1.4 around 3200 N of drag, what i got to do know is to deduce the drag coefficient and calculate what amount of drag is generated by the full scale plane.

for now, just tell me if the drag found with a 2m long model is reasonable.

Regards
 

Bill Walker

Per Ardua ad Nauseum
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
Messages
482
Reaction score
13
Website
rwrwalker.ca
As a very rough approximation, you can assume that the drag coefficient would be calculated using any convenient reference area, and theory predicts the drag coefficient would be linear with this area. Since we don't seem to have much wing area here, I would suggest you use cross sectional area as the reference area (Cd = drag over [0.5 X rho-zero X Ve squared X ref. area]).

If we are at the same speed and altitude, rho-zero and Ve are unchanged, so your drag increases with the ratio of reference area. If your full size airplane has "x" times as much cross sectional area as the model, the full size aircraft would have "x" times as much drag. (This ignores the Reynolds number effect, but should get you within + or - 20%.)

For another quick reality check, calculate your Cd, and compare it to the typical value for a cylindrical bullet in the transonic range: usually around 0.5, based on cross-sectional area.

But - if you can build a model in Solidworks and get aerodynamic forces, why not just build a model of the full size aircraft?
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
i've calculated the drag of the full size , you divide the drag by the small scale frontal area then you multiply it with the full size area, because no other parameter had changed. i found Fx=145 029.12N at Mach 1.4 is it feasible ? i mean with WW2 to post WW2 rocket power technology.

The drag coefficient was found to be 0.13

Regards
 

Attachments

  • M1.4.jpg
    M1.4.jpg
    115.5 KB · Views: 305

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Yes hole in the ground, i think so too that's why i'll remodel the Pfeil to full size then redo the simulation...

but in case i'll find that kind of result, could it be possible that the Pfeil reached that speed tat time
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Hi everyone, i found that the V2 ballistic missile generated a thrust of 264.90 kN well its bigger than the Pfeil drag 145.029 kN, so maybe with a comparable rocket engine would the Pfeil be capable of reaching supersonic speed ! what do you guys think ?

Regards
 

Orionblamblam

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
8,374
Reaction score
2,276
Website
www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com
Hamzalippischh said:
Hi everyone, i found that the V2 ballistic missile generated a thrust of 264.90 kN well its bigger than the Pfeil drag 145.029 kN, so maybe with a comparable rocket engine would the Pfeil be capable of reaching supersonic speed ! what do you guys think ?

Regards

A V-2 engine would certainly have thethrust to stuff this plane past Mach 1, but it's not clear that there'd be the volume for enough fuel to do that.
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Orionblamblam said:
Hamzalippischh said:
Hi everyone, i found that the V2 ballistic missile generated a thrust of 264.90 kN well its bigger than the Pfeil drag 145.029 kN, so maybe with a comparable rocket engine would the Pfeil be capable of reaching supersonic speed ! what do you guys think ?

Regards

A V-2 engine would certainly have thethrust to stuff this plane past Mach 1, but it's not clear that there'd be the volume for enough fuel to do that.

So lets just find out :), im currently redoing another simulation with a full scale model this time, and i'll get the results soon im also going to see if there would be enough internal volume..

cheers
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
I calculated the V2 missile fuel tanks volume and it is 9.75cu m knowing that it is 14m long, i tried then to put two tanks into the Pfeil (with the Pfeil lenght: 15m) with leaving some space for the engine the total volume of the two tanks is 4,67cu m its the half.

one may think that its then impossible that it works, well there is a solution : less fuel doesn't mean less power it means less range, and according to information about Dr Mario Zippermayr proposal he has proposed to use the Pfeil as a parasite rocket interceptor under B-29 bomber (see attachment) and a parasite aircraft does need less fuel because no take-off is needed and the range required is small.

so as a temporary conclusion Pfeil Flugzeug can perform supersonic speeds using rocket engine as used with the V-2 balistic missile but for a limited range due to smaller volume, and this won't be a problem if it is a parasite aircraft.
 

Attachments

  • pfeil_fueltanks.jpg
    pfeil_fueltanks.jpg
    33 KB · Views: 199
  • Untitled-6.jpg
    Untitled-6.jpg
    67.6 KB · Views: 203

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,319
Reaction score
1,403
Kryptid said:
Is that an official internal layout? Placing fuel so close to the cockpit seems dangerous.

Probably not worse, than in the Me 163, although it resulted in quite a number of nasty
accidents (pilots literally dissolved by the caustic fuel after hard landings, that had cracked
the tanks, even without explosions !)

Hadn't noticed since yet, that it is a two-seater. Is this proven ? Cannot see many reasons for
such an aircraft to be manned by a crew of two.
 

lippischh

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
283
Reaction score
42
Website
www.shapeways.com
Kryptid : it's not an official internal layout, its just hypothetical :)

Jemiba : attached image shows two seats

But guys i want critics on what i've been working on, i mean proving that the parasite Pfeil can reach supersonic speeds.

Thanks guys
 

Attachments

  • Untitled-3.jpg
    Untitled-3.jpg
    134.7 KB · Views: 160

Similar threads

Top