LWF Program Cancelled

PW1120 was probably less fuel efficient than the F100 as the fan was cut down and it was a lower bypass ratio.
Click to expand...

That's what I vaguely remember, too, from my Fana de l'aviation readings... the PW1120 was a heavier, more rugged, less efficient variant of F110. Kind of big brute of engine, not very refined. At the beginning Israel probably wanted a F404 and some kind of Grippen LWF, but the Lavi soon took a different path. By contrast a big and powerful engine make sense with Zen suggestion
Really big drop tanks.....and lots of them.
The minus was the drag increases and pylons taken up....along with the hidden G-Limits.
But come the need to could jettison that lot and return to a clean fighter.
Click to expand...

Either you're nimble & lightweight with a small engine (F404) or you go powerful to drag a lot of external tanks and drop that to go into air defence mode.
Just ask the Swedes - Viggen to Grippen.

In this context the Lavi is closer from the Viggen, another massive aircraft with a powerful engine. And just like it, it can go J- (air defence) or AJ (ground attack with a boatload of A2G ordonance and drop tanks).
 
Last edited:
PW1120 is a cut down fan stage turbofan . Just enough to keep the casing cool and just small enough diameter to fit in place of J79.
Engine was intended for both Lavi and F4 upgrade.
 
This is the best video I've run across on the Lavi and it's design. It summarizes the design section of the book Lavi, the United States, Israel, and a Controversial Fighter Jet. If you're interested in the Lavi it's a good read. The section on engine choice starts at 14:34 (of 23:47).

 
Would it also not make sense for the F-15A/B to have a fully funded Air to Ground suite? I never quite understood how the USAF could replace a multirole F-4 with a single mission F-15 and got Congress to approve it. How about a two-seat F-15 to directly replace the F-4 on a one for one basis, with the A-7X/F and F-5G as more "attritable" airframes; A surviving AH-56 could also help plug any remaining CAS holes in the Fulda Gap.

Quick thought: Why not take the BGM-34 attack UAV's more seriously?
 
Last edited:
The F-16 was the Phantom replacement. And later the A-7 replacement. It was also supposed to replace the A-10, but that didn't work out. Heck, if the F-16xl had won over the F-15E it would have replaced the F-111 too.

The F-15 was to meet a new requirement for an uncompromized air superiority fighter, hence "not a pound for air to ground". It replaced the F-4 in the fighter role, but the multi-role mission of the F-4 went to the F-16. Congress approved it because the Century series and the F-4 proved to be less effective in air combat than anticipated. The F-15 (and F-14) were meant to correct that shortcoming of the F-4.
 
isayyo2 said:
Would it also not make sense for the F-15A/B to have a fully funded Air to Ground suite? I never quite understood how the USAF could replace a multirole F-4 with a single mission F-15 and got Congress to approve it. How about a two-seat F-15 to directly replace the F-4 on a one for one basis, with the A-7X/F and F-5G as more "attritable" airframes; A surviving AH-56 could also help plug any remaining CAS holes in the Fulda Gap.

Quick thought: Why not take the BGM-34 attack UAV's more seriously?
Click to expand...
That's more or less the idea I had in mind regarding this thread, the F-15 becoming a true Phantom replacement. And things are a lot more interesting without the boring F-16 replaces everything that happened OTL.
 
To be a bit of a spoilsport/pedantic HOW do you get LWF cancelled in the first place? Do we have a plausible set of events for a point of divergence?
 
Archibald said:
Colonel Boyd is shot down in Korea - maybe ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)

Alternatively, the Air Force got "mani pulite" on the Fighter Mafia and erase them from the face of Earth

Fighter Mafia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
I think better success over Vietnam would take most of the wind out the Fighter Mafia. Whether that success stems from increased training or a less restrictive ROE, I'm not sure. Does anyone know how many F-4 squadrons transitioned to F-16's?
 
Without the LWF comp is their any chance of the F-16 coming into being as a private venture like the F-20 would later?
 
It's possible but with different circumstances it would likely fade away like the OTL F-20, unless there's a foreign nation that's willing to buy and finance it.
 
The elephant in the room is the Convair 200 / 201. Convair was part of GD, and the dates are similar - spring 1972 starting point.
Without LWF it might boils down to Northrop P.530 versus GD-Convair 201... instead of F-16 versus F-17.
Unlike Northrop P.530 (1967 plus N-156 legacies) the F-16 was created from scratch for LWF.
No LWF and GD-Convair picks something else... and the Convair 200 / 201 / 218 were created for Zumwalt ships, SCS and VSS.
I can see USAF picking Northrop P.530 later by default as a miniature F-15 if the Eagle costs go through the roof. Also Europe and Dassault F1-M53 needs some kind of LWF.

The supreme and delightful irony here would be, coming just after the F-15 the P.530 would be called... F-16 !!

On the Navy side the Convair 200 and 218 would pull out a miniature F-35, only missing USAF. Depends from Rockwell XFV-12, too. The 218 would fill the F-18 vacuum - and perhaps allow the 200 to return even after CNO Zumwalt departure in 1974 when Rockwell screws up.
In turn this could screw the AV-8B and give the British Big wing Harrier a chance - for both RAF Mk.3s and SHAR.
 
Last edited:
Both Vought and McDonnell Douglas were hoping that the F16/F18 LWF would be cancelled. They were waiting with updated air superiority versions of the F8 Crusader and the F4 Phantom.
From the NATO perspective as RAF and Bundesluftwaffe squadrons used F4s having the USAF and Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands introduce an F4F version would have been very welcome.
Israel the other big F16 user would have been happy to take more F4s.
The US Navy and Marines quite liked the F8 so that might have helped Vought but even here the F4 would have had the edge.
Such was the poor performance of early F14s that a fighter upgraded F4 might have done what the F18 later did.
You can forget the Convair 200.
 
I wonder if both services had chosen the same heavy fighter (the f-14 gust for an example) whether that would have kept congress from pushing hard for the LWF. Especially if the f-4 dose better in vetnam so that the fighter mafia dosnt gain a lot of power.
 
Necromancing an old thread.

Let's say Lockheed pushes hard with the CL-1200 Lancer, it enters service and kills of LWF before it begins. The Lancer finds some export success in Europe (primarily Italy). Meanwhile Northrop pushes the P530 as an attack aircraft and the A-17 enters service, also finding some success in Europe (Germany). With the navy needing a fighter as well Vought pushes the V-1100 as an F-8 replacement. Dassault gets some success as well with the F1-M53 as the European F-16 buy gets split among various contenders.

How would the above then impact the aerospace landscape (assuming the F-14 and F-15 remain mostly untouched)? How does it impact the European programs like Jaguar and Tornado?
 
Desertfox said:
How does it impact the European programs like Jaguar and Tornado?
Click to expand...
Not lot to be honest.
Jaguar is MRI Strike platform to succeed F4M interim capability.

Tornado is LRI, a.k.a IDS and succeeded Buccaneers and Vulcans.
All effectively planned earlier than US LWF.
 
No LWF ? then VFAX carries on, for the navy.
The F1-M53 should be able to seduce Belgium, and from there the AdA would be forced to change half of its F1 (Atar) orders into M53s: 120 airframes.
No DOTC lost against the F-16 means the F1-M53 is not canned, so probably no Mirage 2000. Note that a Mirage III could be used as a flying testbed for analog-FBW-delta: the III-NG. So really, no need for the 2000. The 4000 is probably toast too, and so is the ACF, which was way expensive for post-1973-oil-shock France.
So the AdA embrace the F1-M53... and it pulls out a Rafale three decade before. This is my own little TL since 2006: the F1-M53 can replace, altogether
-Mirage IIIC / IIIE / V (AdA got 473 of them)
- part of the OTL F1-Atar orders (246 for the Ada)
- the Jaguars for strike (160+ )
- the 2000 (315 received ITTL by the AdA)
...
-And if navalized... 42 Crusaders and 71 Etendard IV needs replacement, so 113 more airframes.
 
I am not sure P.530 would have stayed an attack only type. Assuming the Dutch (who were not MRCA/Tornado partners) bought the plane they would want a fighter version with two Aim9L.

If the Dutch bought Lancer instead and Lancer became the F104 successor candidate up against Archibald's Mirages, the P530 would still have interested the USN and Marines who were also likely to want an F version.

If, however, the P530 did not succeed, an LTV design based on the existing A7 but with two engines was proposed if I remember. This might be more successful than an F8 derived design.

Boeing had been interested in Dassault designs. Might Boeing have partnered it for a new Mirage bid for US forces?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The American contender becomes whoever wins VFAX, although that becomes an F-18 class fighter. But who that might be? I short of suspect the USN would prefer two engined designs which make McDonnell Douglas Model 263 and Northrop YF-17 or a P-600 derivative anyway depending on when LWF got canned the main contenders?
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom