Lockheed Martin F-117A Nighthawk

[quellish]

What is the OS? It's not something produced by Microsoft is it?

IIRC it was Windows NT 4.x or 2000.

 

[Forest Green]

Least it's not Vista.

 

[TMD]

It was CP/M baby!!!!!

Many people don't know about CP/M and the late great Gary Kildall. My son got his masters in computer science/cybersecurity at Naval Postgraduate School, where Gary is fondly remembered. Also, the story about how IBM wanted to CP/M but Gary wasn't there is more nuanced than it has been presented.

DOS & Windows- Why I finally switched to a MacBook Pro.

 

[Empire]

HI All,
In Oct 1983
Once IOC had been met, the CTF began to refine the capabilities of the F-117. Although the F-117 attained IOC by the determined date. TAC considered it very “limited”. The F-117 could only drop an MK-84 or a GBU-10 and the accuracy left something to be desired, a result based on the weapon and not the weapon system. The weapon, a GBU-10, consisted of a 2,000-pound bomb body and a MAU-169 laser guidance unit. The laser guidance section worked on what was known as the bang bang system verses a proportional guidance system. In the bang bang system when the bomb left the bay it acquired the laser and flew to the target. As it corrected , the canards would fully deflect, attempting to find the laser. After a few of these deflections the bomb began a “porpoising” effect that in many cases caused the bomb to miss the target.

My question is did they ever resolve this problem for the GBU-10? If so how and how long did it take? I'm interested if the F-117 could have attacked the bekka valley in Nov 1983 for the Marine Barracks bombing or its bombs where not yet ready for that action.

Respectfully,
Empire

 

[eagle]

The Paveway II series weapons to this day use the "bang bang" guidance afaik. It has been resolved by using Paveway III series weapons when highest accuracy is needed. More specifically the GBU-27 in the case of the F-117. Those entered service in 1987 according to wiki...

 

[Halcyon66]

Some images, awesome aircraft.

Regards,

 

[Hydroman]

Some images, awesome aircraft.

Regards,

Looks like an F-117 delivery to someones house. Gotta an 117 delivery for a Mr Nighthawk, sign for it please and where do you want it buddy?

 

[Empire]

Hi All,
Found this info on the early Paveway 1 & 2/ GBU-10 so the F-117 would have had this CEP and limited to using only one bomb bay at a time per pass on a target because of the early computers it used. Still a good CEP for 1983.

Paveway achieved a CEP of 20 feet (6.1 m) with one in every four bombs scoring a direct hit.[2][3]

Paveway kits attach to a variety of warheads, and consist of a semi-active laser (SAL) seeker, a computer control group (CCG) containing guidance and control electronics, thermal battery, and pneumatic control augmentation system (CAS). There are front control canards and rear wings for stability. The weapon guides on reflected laser energy: the seeker detects the reflected light ("sparkle") of the designating laser, and actuates the canards to guide the bomb toward the designated point.

The original Paveway series, retroactively named Paveway I, gave way in the early 1970s to the improved Paveway II, which had a simplified, more reliable seeker and pop-out rear wings to improve the weapon's glide performance. Both Paveway I and Paveway II use a simple 'bang-bang' control system, where the CAS commands large canard deflections to make course corrections, resulting in a noticeable wobble. This had relatively little effect on accuracy, but expends energy quickly, limiting effective range. As a consequence, most users release Paveway I and II weapons in a ballistic trajectory, activating the laser designator only late in the weapon's flight to refine the impact point.

 

[EmoBirb]

Does anyone know if there have been Russian assessments of the deployment of the F-117 in Iraq or Yugoslavia? Or is that something that wouldn't be published, even these days?

 

[Hydroman]

Does anyone know if there have been Russian assessments of the deployment of the F-117 in Iraq or Yugoslavia? Or is that something that wouldn't be published, even these days?

I have not seen anything regarding assessments. As a note, I know back in the 2016/2017 timeframe the 117 that was on display at the Palmdale Blackbird Airpark had to be moved to the EAFB museum due to lots I'll just say "high foreign interest" in the 117 external configuration resulting in lots of calls to the LA County Sheriff Dept after hours and even a few incidences during operating hours.

 

[NMaude]

resulting in lots of calls to the LA County Sheriff Dept after hours

Let me guess, a number of foreign individuals were caught trespassing after-hours trying to surreptitiously take photographs and measurements of the F-117A.

 

[flateric]

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/_di_nQKI-i4?si=mc4KiHD2OjVwGryu

 

[Halcyon66]

I think I read somewhere they could also have maintenance guys climb in through them to inspect the compressor blades.

Regards,

 

[NMaude]

I think I read somewhere they could also have maintenance guys climb in through them to inspect the compressor blades.

My understanding is that the way the F-117A was designed with stealth in mind is that as a result it was a nightmare to work on from the ground-crews perspective.

 

[Halcyon66]

Yep and the stealth coating was not pretty to work with either, was nasty stuff.




https://www.twz.com/4729/the-toxic-death-paint-scheme-was-the-f-117-nighthawks-most-outrageous
Regards,

 

[Scott Kenny]

My understanding is that the way the F-117A was designed with stealth in mind is that as a result it was a nightmare to work on from the ground-crews perspective.

A&P classmate of mine was an F-117 weapons loader.

He said that the worst part of his maintenance job was being strapped into the bomb bay while they ran the engines up to full power, checking the door closed limit switches and clearance from the stops with a flashlight.

The doors have to close basically perfectly flat with the belly to preserve stealth, so they have a whole process for making sure the doors are closed just right. Not sticking down from the belly, not being "sucked into" the belly. The only way you can check that is from inside the bay, and you can't be laying on the door to do it, either. And it needed to be done with the engines running because the vibrations could change the clearances.

 

[In_A_Dream]

My understanding is that the way the F-117A was designed with stealth in mind is that as a result it was a nightmare to work on from the ground-crews perspective.

This is true, there are horror stories about maintenance crews who experienced toxic exposure to the RAM coatings.

 

[FighterJock]

Did the mantanance crews not have to wear special suits to protect themselves from the toxic chemicals from the RAM coatings on the F-117A? I wonder how they manage nowadays with the radar absorbing paint especially around the likes of the F-22 and F-35?

 

[Q-nimbus]

Somewhat different: the fact they moved F117 operations to Groom Lake during construction works at Tonopah is to me a very clear indication that something very spooky is going on with the F117.

Surely it they could have moved operations to Edwards or so if it was just aggressor training. The fact they’re willing to spend more money and add complexity to operate from Groom can only be for security reasons.

I think that after almost 40 years of spying that the Russians and Chinese have found out most of what there is to find out about the F117.

I think the F117 is either being used for some exotic new technology, or that they are covering for another program, like the A7 did for the F117’s back in the day.

 

[FighterJock]

Same thoughts here Q-nimbus, that could explain why the F-117A is still flying after being supposedly retired from active duty.

 

[In_A_Dream]

Did the mantanance crews not have to wear special suits to protect themselves from the toxic chemicals from the RAM coatings on the F-117A? I wonder how they manage nowadays with the radar absorbing paint especially around the likes of the F-22 and F-35?

IIRC weapons loaders didn’t suit up routinely, and if there was a fire or other mishap they could be doused in the RAM compound butter, which often bonded to their skin...

 

[FighterJock]

Not good news at all In_A_Dream, I would certainly would not like the RAM compound anywhere near my skin as it is toxic.

 

[quellish]

Somewhat different: the fact they moved F117 operations to Groom Lake during construction works at Tonopah is to me a very clear indication that something very spooky is going on with the F117.

Surely it they could have moved operations to Edwards or so if it was just aggressor training. The fact they’re willing to spend more money and add complexity to operate from Groom can only be for security reasons.

I think that after almost 40 years of spying that the Russians and Chinese have found out most of what there is to find out about the F117.

I think the F117 is either being used for some exotic new technology, or that they are covering for another program, like the A7 did for the F117’s back in the day.

The flying F-117s are conducting training and testing. This is well documented. At any given time several F-117s are tasked with R&D support while others are tasked with training (i.e. "aggressors").

In 2023/2024 the Air Force re-competed the F-117 support contract. The existing vendor lost and filed an appeal. The appeal describes many aspects of current post-retirement F-117 operations:

https://govt.westlaw.com/sbaoha/Doc...k=4&t_Method=tnc&t_querytext=DA(last+90+days)
Also attached as a PDF. This details how many F-117s are flyable/flying at any given time and what they are doing.

A 2017 environmental assessment for F-117 operations at the Tonopah Test Range also described the R&D activities of the post-retirement F-117s (also attached).

A number of other US government and contractor documents also describe in detail current F-117 activities. There are also many post-retirement photos of Dark Knights F-117s (many of which show the aircraft do not have RAM applied). The Dark Knights have about 10 pilots total, and the entire organization (minus contractor support) appears to be less than 50 people.

The F-117s are operating out of Groom because TTR is closed for runway work. The work the aircraft are doing has not changed, there was no "spooky" reason they are using Groom. It's just the only facility available to them.

Recently an F-117 was recorded working with RAT55 on a test / diagnostic mission (i.e. as the target). This was a routine part of the work they are doing.

 

[Q-nimbus]

From the court file:

‘Furthermore, the USAF continues to operate the retired F-117A stealth fleet at the Tonopah Test Range (TTR). (Id., citing PWS, at 7.) The Solicitation explains the TTR mission presents unique challenges and describes that mission as including the provision of developmental test and evaluation and research of manned and unmanned air, space, and cyber systems for the military.’

I stand by my earlier opinion: the fact they’re operating from Tonopah doesn’t implicate they’re doing spooky stuff.

The fact they’ve moved to Groom at great financial and logistical expense says to me they’re doing something very classified. Whether that’s in support of another program, or because they’re testing some exotic new technology I don’t know.

But the move to Groom is significant.

 

[quellish]

From the court file:


I stand by my earlier opinion: the fact they’re operating from Tonopah doesn’t implicate they’re doing spooky stuff.

The fact they’ve moved to Groom at great financial and logistical expense says to me they’re doing something very classified. Whether that’s in support of another program, or because they’re testing some exotic new technology I don’t know.

But the move to Groom is significant.

What makes you believe operating from Groom is expensive compared to TTR?

 

[Forest Green]

The F-117 Nighthawk First Went To War 36 Years Ago Today​

https://www.twz.com/air/the-legendary-f-117-nighthawk-first-went-to-war-36-years-ago-today

 

[fightingirish]

A cool short video of two F-117s flying over the desert near Tonopah, Nevada.
Source (X fka twitter):

https://twitter.com/x/status/2002605363670184037

View: https://x.com/i/status/2002605363670184037

 

[aonestudio]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJDxY_STDjs

 

[Scott Kenny]

F-117 at low level? They must be practicing to simulate LO cruise missiles.

 

[Forest Green]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2012561594400551223

View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/2012561594400551223?s=20

 

[TomcatViP]

Father of LM Skunkworks revolutionary RCS management software passed away this week:

For much of his career, Denys Overholser worked in a place where the most important contributions were rarely seen.

Within the walls of Skunk Works, that was the job.

In the mid-1970s, Denys came across a translated Soviet physics paper. Where others saw theory, he saw a path forward. He recognized that radar reflections could be calculated with precision and, more importantly, predicted before an aircraft was ever built. That insight became ECHO 1, a computer program that made it possible to model an aircraft’s radar signature. It shaped the design of the F-117 and established what we now know as stealth.

It also marked a shift.

Not just in what could be built, but in how engineers approached the problem altogether.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-u...erholser-Honoring-the-Skunk-Works-Legend.html

 

[Dew]

HAVE VOID Patch presently on eBay :

HAVE VOID program patch
Vintage Lockheed / USAF I-2000 team patch

The HAVE VOID, or I-2000, program was a component of the USAF's PAVE BLUE [sic] Stealth Fighter development program in the early 1980s during the Cold War. The HAVE VOID / I-2000 was a 2000lb penetrating conventional munition developed and sized specifically to fit within the F-117's weapons bays. The munition's objective was to destroy hardened targets (Command, Control & Communications) that otherwise could only be affected by tactical nuclear weapons.​

further: https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=1695

 

[HaveVoid]

HAVE VOID Patch presently on eBay :

View attachment 811509

further: https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=1695

I feel like I might need to buy that…

 

[Scott Kenny]

I feel like I might need to buy that…

As is, you should use that patch image for your forum pic!

 

[Dew]

I feel like I might need to buy that…

'tis your density [sic]

 

[aonestudio]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ200pAvEiE

 

[FighterJock]

Nice find aonestudio, but what will the restored F-117 be used for?

 

[SOC]

Might be the one going on display at the Air & Space Museum in DC: https://www.si.edu/newsdesk/releases/f-117-nighthawk-joins-national-air-and-space-museum-collection

 

[FighterJock]

That would be good for the Air & Space Museum to have an F-117 Nighthawk on display.