Kongsberg NSM - which way is up?

Josh_TN said:
Tomahawks are good for a thousand miles
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Thousand mile subsonic anti-ship weapon? I assume it would have to fly at high altitudes for most of that distance in order to obtain that sort of performance. That would have some nice survivability implications against a half competent adversary with net centric cooperative engagement capability. Also that sort of range will have a nice and long 90 minute flight time to target? I may be off by a few dozen minutes but I suppose it would eventually get there. :)
 
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bring_it_on said:
Thousand mile subsonic anti-ship weapon? I assume it would have to fly at high altitudes for most of that distance in order to obtain that sort of performance. That would have some nice survivability implications against a half competent adversary with net centric cooperative engagement capability. Also that sort of range will have a nice and long 90 minute flight time to target? I may be off by a few dozen minutes but I suppose it would eventually get there. :)
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While Tomahawk Block Vs maintain the long range, the old TASM only had a ~250-300nmi range.

The problem with such a long range is targeting. Since the Block Vs have a datalink and can update their target points, it works out.
 
Scott Kenny said:
The problem with such a long range is targeting. Since the Block Vs have a datalink and can update their target points, it works out.
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Yes by cutting the range by 2/3 and using third party targeting you can most definitely make it work with a very slow weapon with a long time of flight. It works even better if the adversary complies and lets your ISR and other assets to continue interrupted while it waits patiently for the anti ship missile to arrive.
 
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bring_it_on said:
Yes by cutting the range by 2/3 and using third party targeting you can most definitely make it work with a very slow weapon with a long time of flight. It works even better if the adversary complies and lets your ISR and other assets to continue interrupted while it waits patiently for the anti ship missile to arrive.
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There’s no reason an enemy would even know it had been fired upon from a thousand miles away. An interesting thought exercise is to draw a thousand mile range circle around the Taiwanese straight. Any tomahawk capable platform inside that circle can reach any landing beach, port, or blockade task force, and all of their missiles can be coordinated via satellite.
 
Josh_TN said:
There’s no reason an enemy would even know it had been fired upon from a thousand miles away. An interesting thought exercise is to draw a thousand mile range circle around the Taiwanese straight. Any tomahawk capable platform inside that circle can reach any landing beach, port, or blockade task force, and all of their missiles can be coordinated via satellite.
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Must be one heck of a job they did on the latest block TLAM when it can be launched against a Chinese warship or a port from a thousand miles and the Chinese ISR and other networked capability won't even get a whiff of it either at launch or during its one and a half or two hour flight to target.
 
bring_it_on said:
Must be one heck of a job they did on the latest block TLAM when it can be launched against a Chinese warship or a port from a thousand miles and the Chinese ISR and other networked capability won't even get a whiff of it either at launch or during its one and a half or two hour flight to target.
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I believe they do have a couple IR early warning satellite in GEO, so the launch event might be detected. If it is flying over open water, what specific platform do you think is going to handle the tracking? You seemed to assume a small subsonic object would be easier to track than the warship that is the target.
 
Josh_TN said:
There’s no reason an enemy would even know it had been fired upon from a thousand miles away. An interesting thought exercise is to draw a thousand mile range circle around the Taiwanese straight. Any tomahawk capable platform inside that circle can reach any landing beach, port, or blockade task force, and all of their missiles can be coordinated via satellite.
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Realistically though...how likely is Tomahawk likely to actually penetrate any defences? It's not very stealthy, doesn't really go ultra low and doesn't perform any complex terminal manoeuvres....
 
timmymagic said:
Realistically though...how likely is Tomahawk likely to actually penetrate any defences? It's not very stealthy, doesn't really go ultra low and doesn't perform any complex terminal manoeuvres....
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I was under the impression that tomahawk always had a low flying trajectory and exploited the ground effect. If nothing else I would expect the Blk V to have a radar altimeter; even MALD-N has one.

RCS of the old shape was supposed to be 0.5m2; presumably the Blk IV improved on that. It definitely is not VLO, but I think detection from the frontal arc would still be somewhat reduced in distance.

Tomahawk would likely have to be used in large numbers or with other effectors (eg MALD-N) to attack well defended task forces. But the extreme range and satellite links would allow for a lot of units to concentrate fire.
 
Josh_TN said:
If it is flying over open water, what specific platform do you think is going to handle the tracking?
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I don't know. I haven't looked at this a whole lot to list out what sort of persistent and scalable ISR capability the PLAN and other services have say within 1,000 miles or so of their borders. I expect it to be multi-domain and extensive. Netted together with their version of JADC2. You have to assume your peer adversary has credible capability. Especially so against a decade old subosnic missile that isn't even VLO by say 1990's standards (JASSM) vs an advesary that is outpacing your own AESA fielding quantities on surface combatants (and soon aerial platforms in theater).
 
bring_it_on said:
I don't know. I haven't looked at this a whole lot to list out what sort of persistent and scalable ISR capability the PLAN and other services have say within 1,000 miles or so of their borders. I expect it to be multi-domain and extensive. Netted together with their version of JADC2. You have to assume your peer adversary has credible capability. Especially so against a decade old subosnic missile that isn't even VLO by say 1990's standards (JASSM) vs an advesary that is outpacing your own AESA fielding quantities on surface combatants (and soon aerial platforms in theater).
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I ask the question specifically because in the hypothetical situation I posted, a vast amount of area inside the range circle is open water outside the first island chain, which I think would be problematic for the PRC to monitor.
 
A bit of digging into old literature of previous blocks (not as much info for blk IV and very little for the blk V update) it appears that to achieve maximum range, a medium altitude course is used, but low altitude is used for the penetration phase and over sufficiently short enough flight times, it can be used for the entire engagement.
 
Josh_TN said:
A bit of digging into old literature of previous blocks (not as much info for blk IV and very little for the blk V update) it appears that to achieve maximum range, a medium altitude course is used, but low altitude is used for the penetration phase and over sufficiently short enough flight times, it can be used for the entire engagement.
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A 60, 90 or 120 minute cruise phase at mid--altitude should lend itself nicely to detection by AEW platforms and other surface combatants with AESA radars. We and allies are literally out there training for hunting subsonic cruise missiles with fighter jets and even drones and managing to even shoot those down in actual operations. I mean we're talking about doing this literally in their back yard where 90+% of their force will be available to deploy..

breakingdefense.com

Israel uses F-35I to shoot down cruise missile, a first for Joint Strike Fighter - Breaking Defense

While this is the first known use of an F-35 to take down an incoming missile, the concept, at least on paper, is not new.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
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bring_it_on said:
A 60, 90 or 120 minute cruise phase at mid--altitude should lend itself nicely to detection by AEW platforms and other surface combatants with AESA radars. We and allies are literally out there training for hunting subsonic cruise missiles with fighter jets and even drones and managing to even shoot those down in actual operations. I mean we're talking about doing this literally in their back yard where 90+% of their force will be available to deploy..

breakingdefense.com

Israel uses F-35I to shoot down cruise missile, a first for Joint Strike Fighter - Breaking Defense

While this is the first known use of an F-35 to take down an incoming missile, the concept, at least on paper, is not new.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
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You think there will be AEW outside the first island chain? I think that kind of deployment is pretty problematic. In fact I think that strategic problem is exactly what the J-36 is designed to solve. Against ships, you can simply use the radar horizon.

As for allied efforts to stop cruise missiles and drones, the results in the Red Sea seem mixed. No warships have been hit, but the defense hardly seems air tight either.

ETA: I would expect US strikes to be an order of magnitude greater in volume.
 
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Josh_TN said:
You think there will be AEW outside the first island chain? I think that kind of deployment is pretty problematic. In fact I think that strategic problem is exactly what the J-36 is designed to solve.
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Agreed. It's got generator power for days, I'm assuming that it's got a big radar installed in it.

As much as "stealthy AWACS" seems to be a non-sequitur.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Agreed. It's got generator power for days, I'm assuming that it's got a big radar installed in it.

As much as "stealthy AWACS" seems to be a non-sequitur.
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Optionally stealthy. Transit through the first island chain to your patrol station and then light up. If something takes a shot at you, you are wearing four long range weapons and and 4-6 medium on a super cruising aircraft.
 
Josh_TN said:
Optionally stealthy. Transit through the first island chain to your patrol station and then light up. If something takes a shot at you, you are wearing four long range weapons and and 4-6 medium on a super cruising aircraft.
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I was wondering about LPI AEW radars. If that's reasonably possible, I mean.
 
Best use of Tomahawks would be on the invasion fleet, which is slow or stopped, lacking in point defense systems, and in predictable locations. You can even use Taiwan itself to shield the missiles as they come in just like the Argentinians did at the Falklands.
 
Desertfox said:
Best use of Tomahawks would be on the invasion fleet, which is slow or stopped, lacking in point defense systems, and in predictable locations. You can even use Taiwan itself to shield the missiles as they come in just like the Argentinians did at the Falklands.
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I can think of better uses, but certainly ships loading or unloading are far easier targets.
 
Josh_TN said:
The L stands for low, not impossible. And quite honestly it is hard to imagine modern AI cannot figure that out, especially over open water where there is a lack of background noise to compete with.
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Had not considered that point. LPI is probably trivial over a battlefield on land with dozens of radars and all the radio traffic. It's likely a lot less trivial without all that noise.
 

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