Kind of Rorschach inkblot test...

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
Had a look at some photos of the NC.2001/2002 and noticed, that on the fin
of the first prototype, there's something visible, that could be part of the
structure, maybe the attachement of the fin to the horizontal flying surface,
but could as well be just painted or written on. What does it seem to be to
you ?
And then, the mock-up shown on the aerosalon, as well as the prototype of the
NC.2002 carried a sign on the forward fuselage. I see a bee flying near to two
daisies in it ("Abeille" means bee). Perhaps it was a kind of cartoon character,
popular in France in the late '40s ? Any other suggestions ?
 

Attachments

  • details.jpg
    details.jpg
    75.5 KB · Views: 341

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
Sorry, but another attempt. I tried to depict, what I see in that sign,
maybe it rings a bell for somebody ? Those two flowers perhaps should
hint at the two rotors ? Or perhaps one of our French members remembers
having seen it before, quite a while ago ? Colours are just guesswork, of
course.
But for a colour profile, it would be great to know exacty, what it is.
 

Attachments

  • logo-1.jpg
    logo-1.jpg
    80 KB · Views: 265

Silencer1

That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
685
Reaction score
225
Hello!


Perhaps there was a inscription on the fin?
Like ... 2001... or something similar.
The aircraft designation?


Thank you for sharing pictures - both helicopter and logo, that you made!
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
Silencer1 said:
... Like ... 2001... or something similar.

Thanks for your answer !
Yes, I had this idea, too, and was pointed to the possibility, that the type number ("2001")
was painted on, but whited out again, for some reasons.
In the moment, I rather tend to the opinion, that those looming circles are related to the
attachment of the fin. Still looking through drawings of cutaways of other aircraft with twin
fins, if something similar can be found.
And that sign ? Well, maybe today things would be easier, as probably every kind of graphic,
that is shown by a company is registered in a way. I'm looking for French advertising art in
the moment, something I never had thought to do before. But that's, what make dealing
with aviation themes that interesting ! ;)
 

Silencer1

That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
685
Reaction score
225
I hope, that some day, new images f this helicopter (or good source of them) would be found.
At this moment, all we could do is to generate ideas :cool:


By the way, did you visited French State Library online?
http://gallica.bnf.fr/?lang=EN


There were a number of aviation magazines and newspapers there, available for online viewing, text searching and downloading.


Good luck!
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
856
I have a feeling your drawing of a bee with two flowers (symbolizing rotors, I guess) is pretty close to what was painted on the machine. It is logical that they should portray a bee to depict an aircraft named just that!
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
Skyblazer said:
... It is logical that they should portray a bee to depict an aircraft named just that!

Although I spotted the weak point of my theory in the meantime: The NC.2002, which carried that
sign, too, is said to have been called "Libellule" . :-\
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
856
Jemiba said:
Skyblazer said:
... It is logical that they should portray a bee to depict an aircraft named just that!

Although I spotted the weak point of my theory in the meantime: The NC.2002, which carried that
sign, too, is said to have been called "Libellule" . :-\

OUCH!! You're absolutely right!! :-[

Then maybe it depicts a dragonfly in similar setting?
 

Silencer1

That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
685
Reaction score
225
Just my guess: this logo key element is a flying bug with two flowers in his hands, symbolizing two rotors.
These helicopters share one common solution, Kaman-style rotors - so, despite different names, it could share the same logo.
Just my guess ;)
I'm looking forward to see other images and suggestions!
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
Silencer1 said:
... this logo key element is a flying bug with two flowers in his hands, symbolizing two rotors.

- Yes, that's possible, recognising a bee in that "inkblot" somehow means stretching imagination,
as the hindquarters are bent upwards, not very typical for a bee, I think. And interpreting such blurry
pictures always involves the danger of of seeing, what you want to see !

- In an article in the InterAvia mag, written by René Dorand himself, the version with the long tail
and single fin is already shown, but there's no mention of the name "Libellule". Maybe it was assigned
only later, or for the production type (with retractable landing gear) only ?

Well, probably the work of an artist, copyright laws are older, than this helicopter, maybe it was protected,
then maybe it can be found somewhere.
I'm still trying to enhance that picture, maybe that will gave a clue.
And of course I'm still looking for additional sources. I've started that as a "long term project", so I
still have a lot of time. ;)
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
Just an update: No success still yet with the bee or bug logo, but a member of the
aeroforum suggested, that those "donuts" on the fin actually are looming fasteners
of the fin/tailplane attachement. The different sizes make this quite plausible, to my
opinion. Could look like this:
 

Attachments

  • Fin.jpg
    Fin.jpg
    58.5 KB · Views: 122

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
That's something I still have to check, but the photo was taken from an angle
of roughly 45°, what would explain distortion.
 

Silencer1

That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
685
Reaction score
225
I don't think, that fin distortion could be so dramatic.


Could I suggest you to compare helicopter fin with other types of empennage of the aircraft, produced by "Centre"?
As far as I remember, there certain such types - but I'm not very familiar with them.


Helicopter' designer could spend much of attention to rotor and shaft systems and less to the other - like empennage or landing gear.
So, fins (possibly) share common structure with similar company projects?
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
856
Looking at the same photo in Jean Boulet's Histoire de l'hélicoptère, and despite the fact my eyesight is not quite as sharp as it used to be, I can find no positive evidence that these oval shapes were internal. The theory that it was simply the designation (perhaps faded, perhaps doctored over) remains the most likely to me.

On a different note, I never realized one interesting piece of data provided by Boulet: there were THREE, not just two, NC 2001 prototypes built. The first one broke up in 1947; the second one did only one stationary flight, almost unofficially, at the hands of pilot Claude Dellys in June 1949, after which the program was cancelled. Boulet doesn't say anything about the degree of completion of the third example, but "trois prototypes ont été construits" suggests it must have been pretty advanced.
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
On that photo, I thankfully got from Jaques Moulin, to me it looks, as if those
objects were slightly protruding and of two different alternating sizes. The latter
seems to be odd for an inscription. Vertical position seems to be the same, as the
tailplane, so the only place, where a kind of attachment points could have been.
I'm leaning to some kind of caps for openings under which the attachment points
were positioned. The fin and tailplane were fabric covered, covering them after
assembly is unlikely, so there may have been some "wholes" to give access.
About the shape, I'll try to check distortion this evening.
And I'll look for fabric covered flying surfaces of other SNCAC types !

My theory about the 3 prototypes is, that there were two of the NC.2001 :
The first one was destroyed by accident during ground testing on 3rd of January
1948 and the second one, which made a free flight on the 28th of June 1949,
shortly before SNCAC was closed and the program stricken.
The third prototype to my opinion was the NC.2002, with elongated tail and
single fin. Some sources are speaking of short and long tailed versions of the
NC.2001 and the reason for both seems to have been just to find out, what's
the best. So, with the beginning of the program the end result may not have
been that clear and perhaps the 2002-designation just was assigned, when all
3 prototypes were well advanced.

As can be seen, there are several discrepancies. Different number of prottypes,
different dates of the maiden flight and even the praised Trait d'Union article
to my opinion mixes up photos of both prototypes. So, there's still enough to do !

Thank you for participating in that research, it's much more helpful to hear another
opinion, than to stare on those photos again and again ! ;)
 

The Artist

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
638
Reaction score
292
First. Could those circles be access or inspection plates since it is fabric covered? Second. The bug in the logo looks more like an ant to me.
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,598
The Artist said:
Could those circles be access or inspection plates since it is fabric covered?

Exactly what I thought. Today items like these seem to be made from plastic, I suppose,
they were made from tin back then. Modern examples are sold here:
http://motoplaneparts.com/listing.php?pid=67378

About the shape, I tried to check the distortion. Viewed from the angle the photo was taken from,
a circle would look like shown below.

The Artist said:
The bug in the logo looks more like an ant to me.

I'm afraid you could be right. Either the bent hindquarters are just an illusion due to the
heavy pixelation, or it really could be an ant ...
But perhaps, it was meant as a kind poetic analogy ? With the two rotors, symbolised by the
flowers, an ant would turn into a flyable insect, moving from the dark, cold ground towards
the sun. There is something else at the top of that circle, which could be the sun, I think ..
Could explain, that the same logo was used for the "Abeille" and the "Libellule".
Do I have to read French poems now ??! I don't even read German ones ! ;D
But it could be an additional starting point, thank you.
 

Attachments

  • circle.gif
    circle.gif
    12 KB · Views: 49
Top