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French 1937 Programme Technique A20

Apophenia

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Cheers Deltafan -- great stuff on the D.800 series. Any images in LES AVIONS DEWOITINE?

A few details of Programme Technique A20 and a list of candidates from
http://forums-fr.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/426102813/m/3891014553/p/11

The 1937 Programme Technique A20 was for a multi-place bomber (B5 five member crew) to replace the Farman 222. The new aircraft was to be able to deliver 1,800kg of bombs at 1200 km distance or 3,600kg to 700 km, at a speed of 450 km/h at 4,000m altitude. The A20 program required an aircraft capable of taking off with full load, clearing an obstacle 8m high in 600m.

In 1938, required cruising speed was increased to 470 km/h. Manufacturers answering the A20 competition were:

- Amiot 390
- Bloch 162 and 163
- Bréguet 482
- Couzinet AC-20 and AC-21
- Dewoitine D-800
- SNCAC NC-110
- Potez 660
- SNCAO CAO-700 and CAO-710

Does anyone have any more information about any of these designs? The Bre-482 and CAO-700 are fairly well-known but the Amiot 390 and Bloch 163 are completely new to me.

An image of the wind-tunnel model of the Couzinet AC-20 is attached. This is a composite of two images from http://perso.orange.fr/aircollection/couzinet.htm .

The NC-110 NC-140 "was intended to employ the wings, tail surfaces and undercarriage of the NC 223.3 bomber and NC 223.4 mailplane, a similar arrangement of four Hispano-Suiza 12Y engines paired in two nacelles, and a new circular section pressurized fuselage but detail design was shelved in favour of a smaller bomber, the NC 150..."

source: p152 William Green Warplanes of the Second World War, Vol 7, Doubleday, 1967.

A melage of NC-150 and NC-223 is fairly easy to envision. Does anyone have access to AFM n°05 (Août/Septembre 2005)?

The attached EADS image purports to show the Potez 661 (Renault 6Q-02/03) but looking more like the Potez 662 with Gnôme-Rhône 14Ms. As asked on this forum by Nick Sumner (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,774.0.html), can we assume that the Potez 660 used the same 22.5m span, 64m2 area wings as those two civil prototypes?
 

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hesham

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Hi Apophenia,

But in Air Pictorial magazine the Amiot for this competition
was type-380 and not type-390.
 

Jemiba

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The Potez 661/662 were theme of the Aviation Francais Magazine June/July 2006,
including half a page about the Potez 660, see photo of a model below. In the August/
September 2005 issue the NC-110 was featured, pictures also from that magazine.
Cessation of this magazine was the second sad loss of that kind this year ! :'(
 

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Pepe Rezende

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...was a very advanced plane for its time.

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/br482/br482-2.gif
 

Apophenia

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hesham said:
But in Air Pictorial magazine the Amiot for this competition
was type-380 and not type-390.

Thanks for the correction Hesham. Now I can find a few Google entries not to mention your 3-view from back in April. :)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=395.90
 

hesham

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From the book; L'Aviation Francaise de Bombarderment et de Renseignement 1918/1940,here
is anther picture to Potez B5 Model.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Br 480 and Br 482.

http://alternathistory.com/opytnyi-tyazhelyi-bombardirovshchik-i-eksperimentalnyi-samolet-breguet-br-482-02-frantsiya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breguet_482
"In December 1936 the French Air Ministry issued a specification for a four-seat, twin-engined medium bomber, with Breguet's initial design, the Breguet 480 (or Bre. 480) to be powered with the specified 1,225 hp (914 kW) Gnome et Rhône 14L radial engines, intended to carry 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) of bombs over a 2,500 km (1,600 mi) radius. Gnome et Rhône abandoned the 14L however, so, after considering a version powered by two Hispano-Suiza 12Y V12 engines, Breguet reworked the design as the Breguet 482, with four 1,350 hp (1007 kW) Hispano-Suiza 12Z engines, with an order for two prototypes placed by the French Air Ministry on 12 May 1938.

The Breguet 482 was a mid-winged monoplane of all-metal construction, with a clean, low-drag, oval section monocoque fuselage, twin tails and a retractable tailwheel undercarriage. The planned defensive armament was a 20mm Hispano-Suiza HS.404 cannon in a power-operated dorsal position, with a 7.5mm machine gun in the nose and a further two machine guns in ventral mountings. Up to 2,500 kg (5,500 lb) of bombs could be carried."

"Bre 480 Original design, powered by two Gnome-et-Rhône 14L radial engines. Unbuilt.
Bre 481 Proposed versions with two Hispano-Suiza 12Y engines and reduced wing area.
Bre 481 B4 Planned bomber version of Bre 481. Unbuilt.
Bre 481 Raid Planned long-range record aircraft with further reduced wing area.
Bre 482 B4 Four-engined bomber powered by Hispano-Suiza 12Z engines.
Bre 482 No 1 First prototype - destroyed 1942.
Br 482 No 2 Second prototype, completed 1947 as three-seat research aircraft.
 

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blackkite

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Larger three side view drawing.

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/br482.html
 

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blackkite

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Hi! SNCAC NC-110.

http://forum.aviation-ancienne.fr/t8080-projet-de-bombardier-strategique-le-nc-110
"The main originality of this project was its engine: nacelles, partially drowned out in a thick trapezoidal wing, were each 2 engines Hispano-Suiza 12Y driving a pair of contra-rotating propellers through a gear case:"

"Their cooling was provided by group radiators on top of these pods, between the drive shafts, allowing a good aerodynamics and perhaps (?) a propulsive effect, because most of the studies in the wind tunnel are on those pods."
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Dewoitine D-800.

http://raigap.livejournal.com/442759.html
"Emile Dewoitine was developing its draft heavy bomber during the competition. In this same contest participated machines Farman NC 223, Bloch MB. 135 and Breguet Br. 482. Anticipated creation of heavy machinery carried out the flight range of the order of 2500 km. Alas, Devotina did not even to the point of prototype ...

Option D. 800 had the following calculation PERFORMANCE CHARACTERISTICS: 20.15 m length, wingspan-29.81 m power plant of four engines Hispano-Suiza 14AA-08 capacity of 1030 HP, empty weight-10898 kg takeoff weight-18666 kg, maximum speed-457 km/h range-2400 km armament: 1 20 mm cannon, 3 machine gun 7.5-mm, up to 2500 kg of bombs.

The layout was built in 1/1 scale. Due to problems with engines Hispano-Suiza 14AA, Dewoitine requested Gnome-Rhône 14N similar power, but at the moment the Government can only give less powerful engines. And then the designer has stopped and closed the project.

Although later was worked out draft d. 820 under engines Hispano-Suiza 12Y engines 860 HP Computational PERFORMANCE CHARACTERISTICS: 13.32 m length, wingspan-22.71 m empty weight-6262 kg takeoff weight-11012 kg, maximum speed- 535 km/h.

Source-LES AVIONS DEWOITINE Raymond Danel lyrics et Jean Cuny, DOCAVIA/Editions Larivière 1982"
 

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blackkite

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SNCAO CAO-700.

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/sncao700.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCAO_700
"The SNCAO CAO.700 was a French prototype four-engined bomber of all-metal construction, developed shortly prior to and during the Second World War. Only a single example had been completed and flown when the surrender of France in June 1940 ended development of the aircraft."
 

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Maveric

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hesham said:
Hi Apophenia,

But in Air Pictorial magazine the Amiot for this competition
was type-380 and not type-390.

Nice to see more about Amiot 380 or 390... B)
 

blackkite

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Maveric said:
hesham said:
Hi Apophenia,

But in Air Pictorial magazine the Amiot for this competition
was type-380 and not type-390.

Nice to see more about Amiot 380 or 390... B)
Yes indeed. ;)
 

hesham

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Hi,

the Amiot-380 was a four engined heavy bomber Project version of Amiot-370,powered by four
1200 hp Gnome-Rhone 18 engines,and had an estimated speed of 518 km/h at 10500m altitude.
 

hesham

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Hi,

the Amiot-381 was a development version of Amiot-380,powered by four Hispano 14 Aa
engines,and had estimated speed of 482 km/h at 9900m altitude.
 

blackkite

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Thanks a lot. Good information. do you have any drawing?
 

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