Jaguar kills off its model line, with no clear plan for the future

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This was announced to investors back in July. Note the low sales of Jaguar models v Land Rover models. And the lack of profitability, not helped by the models being built by Magna Steyr in Austria. That company is now itself in trouble with the loss of other manufacturing contracts.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/jaguar-to-axe-five-models
Not helping is the threat of UK Govt penalties from this year if companies do not reach a target of 22% of car sales being of EVs. £15k per car under that limit. And the limit goes up each year from now until 2028.
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/ca...t-by-third-britons-handed-record-ev-discounts
 
Jaguar's plan. I'm dubious - it's hard to break into the top of the luxury sector, but fingers crossed.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-ev-concept-december-then-no-new-car-sales-year
Short version: concept for 4-door GT revealed in December, eventual three-car lineup of that car's production version, a Bentley-Bentayga-rivalling SUV and a Rolls Royce Flying Spur-sized limo.

They released this teaser of the concept car some time ago. It's a rear view, showing a sharp shoulder line and a flare over the wheel arch. Rumour has it that it like some Polestar models, it has no rear window.

jaguar_electric_teaser.jpg
 
Related news, Bentley has released a teaser of their first full EV, an 'urban SUV' with GT range, smaller than a Bentayga and due 2026. A concept version will appear sooner. The profile suggests that it will take some cues from the (very) limited edition Batur coupé. The render is an artist's impression with no official links but seems reasonable.

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Cost, weight, and range anxiety are considered reasons for the slow sales of EVs after the early adopters and several manufacturers have either delayed their transition to fully electric (Bentley, for example, from 2030 to 2035), or expressed scepticism overall (Toyota, which is also exploring hydrogen). Solid state batteries and more efficient motor technologies (such as axial flux - https://www.thedrive.com/news/why-axial-flux-motors-are-a-big-deal-for-evs) are expected to help bring weights down and allow substantially increased ranges. Jaguar's plan looks very risky right now but miiiiight pay off in the longer run as these technologies become available. I don't think that it'll be easy for them though.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Why do I see these penalties destroying what remains of the UK car manufacturers, because there's just not enough demand there for EVs?
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Not just the UK is affected. The EU has similar rules. A few months ago figures of €15 billion in penalties being levied on manufacturers by the EU. There is now some pushback from individual countries within the EU about the economic effects on companies with manufacturing plants there. Japanese car makers are also badly affected, Toyota for example seemingly preferring hybrids to pure EV.

In the UK there are multiple worries for potential EV buyers, other than just "range anxuety". The public charging infrastructure is not there and is v
ery expensive to use. It's alright if you can charge at home and tap into cheap tariffs but with so much of the UK population living in flats (apartment blocks to those in the US) that just isn't possible. So far no one seems to realise that all this extra electricity demand will need more power stations, wind farms etc and the transmission lines to move it where it is needed. And planning rules being what they are in the UK, those kind of projects take far longer than the EV targets imply.

The rules also ignore the various hybrid technologies, hydrogen etc. But that is what happens when you let politicians choose the technology. Anything for today's sound bite. Highly unlikely they will be in power when the lights go out!
 
EwenS said:
In the UK there are multiple worries for potential EV buyers, other than just "range anxuety". The public charging infrastructure is not there and is v
ery expensive to use. It's alright if you can charge at home and tap into cheap tariffs but with so much of the UK population living in flats (apartment blocks to those in the US) that just isn't possible. So far no one seems to realise that all this extra electricity demand will need more power stations, wind farms etc and the transmission lines to move it where it is needed. And planning rules being what they are in the UK, those kind of projects take far longer than the EV targets imply.
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The one thing that keeps coming up with friends with EV's is that they really like them, all have drives and garages where they can get cheap charging prices overnight, some with solar as well....but the real killer is when they come to sell them on.....the hit that people are taking on them is enormous, a lot of early/earlier adopters have reached that point in the last 2 years and the shock of the depreciation on those earlier EV's has put them off buying again...remains to be seen if that depreciation continues for the current generation of cars out there at present.
 
Yeah the second hand EV market looks pretty rough, nobody wants a half-knackered battery that costs more than the (second-hand) car does to replace.
Plus you're more or less locked into dealer servicing still.
Plus even the smallest EV is about 10-15k more than its petrol equivalent and I don't call a £25-30k car 'cheap', even if you have a PCP deal - which is still rough because as you say, with the high depreciation costs, that sum left over at end of the PCP is likely to see you out of pocket.

Maybe we'll see a shift to a hire market or a pay-as-you-go type model? The 'classic' 3-year ownership cycle looks increasingly obsolete as a business model when you get into EV territory.
 
I do not see the point of rigidly sticking to one solution, politics have always been a poor metric for change butwe are stuck with the morons.

The real goal is to remove the personal transport system for the masses and frankly that is insufficient now, let alone in the future.

Yes, I know there are apostles of battery electric there but WTAF.

Eco fuels could see us with tangible improvement now with the tech we have but why spoil the good thing of friends of friends of friends and politics?
 
Thanks but, it's a utwerp video so, not really.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Thanks but, it's a utwerp video so, not really.
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Harry Metcalfe is carefully unsensational and sincere. He's also well informed. I think you can make an exception.

Here's his bio:

Harry is best known for founding Evo magazine with a group of talented motoring journalists back in 1998, along with writing for Octane Magazine and Sunday Times. Harry also became an outside advisor to Jaguar Land Rover, helping with JLR Special Operations.
 
Just rebatch a Lotus SUV to a Jaguar, seems like there is no future for smart lightweight engineering and sport cars...
 
Rhinocrates said:
Harry Metcalfe is carefully unsensational and sincere. He's also well informed. I think you can make an exception.

Here's his bio:

Harry is best known for founding Evo magazine with a group of talented motoring journalists back in 1998, along with writing for Octane Magazine and Sunday Times. Harry also became an outside advisor to Jaguar Land Rover, helping with JLR Special Operations.
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I know who Harry is, of all the so called 'experts' on motoring, he is the one who'se opinions I take note of and I know how much impact he has had on petrol heads like myself.

Gifted at informing without bovine comments and extraneous bull.

I will simply not sign up and login to utwerp.
 
GTX said:
Yuck
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Well, heavy disguise - some padding to change the silhouette (particularly around the c-pillar and rear roofline.), and a dazzle pattern to hide contours. The 'grille' is certainly fake - it just a bolted-on panel and it has a hole in it through which you can see more of the dazzle pattern. The lights supposedly will be thin strips. All we can be sure of are the general proportions, wheelbase, and most of the glasshouse.

My guess is that its body is quite high and fairly flat-sided with a sharp shoulder line and with flared fenders to emphasise the wheels. The way the A-pillar meets the roof suggests that they'll be blacked out like a Range Rover's to give a wrap-around visor effect and the glasshouse itself is very low and will have a teardrop profile. It's electric, so the long nose must have a huge frunk - enough to hold a body, perhaps. As mentioned, like some Polestar models, there likely won't be a rear windscreen.

Company spokescreatures are constantly saying that it's a 'copy of nothing' so it will be a departure in terms of style and a lot of people are going to say it's not a real Jaguar. Anyway, After December 2 we can all say 'Yuck' or not when a concept version is revealed.

A successor to the XJ saloon (the new car is classed as a GT) was under development but cancelled. Ian Callum was responsible for that design before he quit to become an independent designer. These are about the best images of that car available.
 

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EwenS said:
You might find this interesting
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Very interesting indeed.
Harry Metcalfe makes a point of
- energy efficiency
- insurance rates that come with 500hp+ EVs
- the difficulty of determining battery capacity after a few years use
- how to make EV-batteries last longer
- EV depreciatIon
- tax policies are driving a horsepower race
 
Came across another YouTube video discussing battery life.

Problem seems to be that when the battery goes wrong and the car is out of warranty, most dealerships are not set up to repair batteries at the present time and they can only offer replacement of the whole battery pack. For a high end motor like a Range Rover or Porsche Taycan we are talking about c£25k.

Lot of money to shell out on a car that cost £75-100k that is maybe just over 3 years old and out of warranty.

Video featured a company that was able to examine each cell in the battery pack to find out which were "dead". They then replaced blocks / strips of cells affected (they repair by replacement individual blocks /strips of cells within the battery pack as more immediately economic). The strips with "dead" cells could then be rebuilt for use later as second hand on a mix & match basis with strips from other vehicles, or sent for recycling. The chap was quoting a typical cost for his service of £5k.
 
In the Tesla Model-Y, only one big batterie is used, of course it contains many single cells, but there is no accsess for any replacement of any parts. The big battery forms an integral part of the chassis, but can still replaced as a whole. Unfortunately, it must be replaced if the slightest visible damage on the outside occurs in an accident.

For E-cars with many seperated cells, repairs are allready beeing done quite often by repacing defect cells with used ones.
 
Hood said:
Yeah the second hand EV market looks pretty rough, nobody wants a half-knackered battery that costs more than the (second-hand) car does to replace.
Plus you're more or less locked into dealer servicing still.
Plus even the smallest EV is about 10-15k more than its petrol equivalent and I don't call a £25-30k car 'cheap', even if you have a PCP deal - which is still rough because as you say, with the high depreciation costs, that sum left over at end of the PCP is likely to see you out of pocket.

Maybe we'll see a shift to a hire market or a pay-as-you-go type model? The 'classic' 3-year ownership cycle looks increasingly obsolete as a business model when you get into EV territory.
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In the United States, aside from Tesla, something over 90% of (non-Tesla) EVs are leased. Manufacturers and/or banks are taking some tremendous hits on residuals. Consumers are wary of buying outright because of the obvious risks in terms of maintainence and repairs, not to mention rapid obsolescence. Tesla has been an exception, even though the build quality is notorious.

Consumers are definitely attached to the concept of the 2-3 year cycle of leasing, especially with EVs. Subscriptions have been tried by various luxury brands and the schemes have all been abandoned. Rental fleets have had bad luck with EVs and I don’t see car sharing firms like Zipcar going mainstream. If EVs are the future, the vast majority of legacy ICE manufacturers are going to go bankrupt. Honestly, if I had to buy an EV at the moment, Tesla is the only real choice. Elon is making the iPhone of EVs and you don’t have to be a fan of the other choices are increasingly implausible.
 
Rhinocrates said:
Well, heavy disguise - some padding to change the silhouette (particularly around the c-pillar and rear roofline.), and a dazzle pattern to hide contours. The 'grille' is certainly fake - it just a bolted-on panel and it has a hole in it through which you can see more of the dazzle pattern. The lights supposedly will be thin strips. All we can be sure of are the general proportions, wheelbase, and most of the glasshouse.

My guess is that its body is quite high and fairly flat-sided with a sharp shoulder line and with flared fenders to emphasise the wheels. The way the A-pillar meets the roof suggests that they'll be blacked out like a Range Rover's to give a wrap-around visor effect and the glasshouse itself is very low and will have a teardrop profile. It's electric, so the long nose must have a huge frunk - enough to hold a body, perhaps. As mentioned, like some Polestar models, there likely won't be a rear windscreen.

Company spokescreatures are constantly saying that it's a 'copy of nothing' so it will be a departure in terms of style and a lot of people are going to say it's not a real Jaguar. Anyway, After December 2 we can all say 'Yuck' or not when a concept version is revealed.

A successor to the XJ saloon (the new car is classed as a GT) was under development. but cancelled. Ian Callum was responsible for that design before he quit to become an independent designer. These are about the best images of that car available.
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It’s not to soon to write off a $200,000 Jaguar EV sedan. The brand is dead. All of the remaining crossovers are duplicated in Land Rover/Range Rover variants. People are apparently willing to roll the dice with those brands. Jaguar, not so much. Shifting from slow selling $70k petrol crossovers and sedans to $200k EVs isn’t going to work. At best, it’s a way of gently closing British auto plants while seeking a bailout. Increasingly, GM and Stellantis are pulling the same trick in the USA. Tooling up the least desirable UAW plants for EVs that are certain to fail. In Europe, Fords been smart enough to rebadge VW EVs while winding down their own factories, concentrating on the more profitable light commercial vehicle sector. Selling Transits to the typical “white van man.” Pickups are doing shockingly well in the UK and EU as well.

Tata made a reasonable investment in the XE much in the same way FCA did with the Giulia. Both failed in the market. The same happened with the Cadillac ATX/CT4 and CTS/CT5. Or the hilarious Kia Stinger. It turns out you can build a reasonable 3-series competitor and nobody will buy it. Why? BMW builds splendid engines that put out a lot more power than the SAE or DIN rating. The same is true to a lesser extent with Audi and VW in general. I’m not saying the Germans are perfectly reliable but who is these days? Certainly not Toyota and Honda. And to JLR’s credit, the Ingenium engine is nowhere nearly as failure prone as the sell destructing engines in Toyota’s 2022-onward Tundras.
 
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With giants like VW struggling (still in billions of profit but less billions than they were) its clear that the industry is struggling.
With car makers unable to make sufficient profits on ICE superminis and now unable to raise enough profit/flog enough high-end hybrids and EVs, its clear that the market is closing in considerably.
Sure we could all drive mid-level SUVs like everyone drove Ford Model Ts 90 years ago but that would be kind of boring....
 
Hood said:
With giants like VW struggling (still in billions of profit but less billions than they were) its clear that the industry is struggling.
With car makers unable to make sufficient profits on ICE superminis and now unable to raise enough profit/flog enough high-end hybrids and EVs, its clear that the market is closing in considerably.
Sure we could all drive mid-level SUVs like everyone drove Ford Model Ts 90 years ago but that would be kind of boring....
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It’s quite telling that the two best selling cars in Europe are the Tesla Model Y… and the Dacia Sandro. And before anyone mocks the cheapest car in Europe, higher end Renaults and Nissan aren’t all that much more interesting than Dacias these days. Gone are the Renault Sport Clips and Peugeot GTIs. Literally every Stellantis cookie cutter crossover coming out is powered by the same 1.2 liter 3-cylinder. Boring much? Only VW has a full mainstream model line including performance cars, and they aren’t doing all that well.

So the EV future is going to be boring and Tesla will be dominant. The Tesla Model Y is the new Ford Model T.
 
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The radiator is the wrong shape, in general the shape reminds me more of the Bucciali TAV 12. Replica? CGI?
 
Rhinocrates said:
A successor to the XJ saloon (the new car is classed as a GT) was under development but cancelled. Ian Callum was responsible for that design before he quit to become an independent designer. These are about the best images of that car available.
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Update.

GcmrV0FXkAAG-fd.jpeg
 
Looks like a cross of the XJ, XE and XF to my eyes.

I truly despair when the discerning driver is after a pug ugly crosse eyed over or a faux by four, all of which have spent far too much time being slapped by the corporate ugly stick weilding dummy sucking accountants.

More time with their two hourly feeds and less time listening to them immitating a buggered gearbox. Oh, and someone make sure there is a rusk with the warmed over milk, please.

It would be an upgrade design wise, if the two year olds WERE weilding the caryons.
 
Would it be too much to ask that a Jaguar look like a Jaguar as opposed to something more American? I live in America and am surrounded by mediocre mediocrity on four wheels. It's as if designers are being told by accountants that "every additional bend in the metal costs X so nothing above X number of bends on the vehicle." I do hope designers there are following the U.S. in producing large-scale projections with natural light that show the proposed design from all normal viewing angles.

I read about a somewhat amusing showing of a new pickup truck design to typical buyers. The primary complaint was that the grille did not look manly enough. Of course, additional questions had to be asked to help define "manly" to a group of car designers. This elicited comments like the grille looked "girly." The solution was sharper and heavier looking. This resulted in high approvals.
 
New Branding. It looks rather 70s British Leyland, actually.
 

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edwest4 said:
I read about a somewhat amusing showing of a new pickup truck design to typical buyers. The primary complaint was that the grille did not look manly enough. Of course, additional questions had to be asked to help define "manly" to a group of car designers. This elicited comments like the grille looked "girly." The solution was sharper and heavier looking. This resulted in high approvals.
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What the customer wants...
 

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EwenS said:
Not helping is the threat of UK Govt penalties from this year if companies do not reach a target of 22% of car sales being of EVs. £15k per car under that limit. And the limit goes up each year from now until 2028.
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Difficult to deal with government insanity when you are already on the rocks.
 
edwest4 said:
Would it be too much to ask that a Jaguar look like a Jaguar as opposed to something more American? I live in America and am surrounded by mediocre mediocrity on four wheels. It's as if designers are being told by accountants that "every additional bend in the metal costs X so nothing above X number of bends on the vehicle." I do hope designers there are following the U.S. in producing large-scale projections with natural light that show the proposed design from all normal viewing angles.

I read about a somewhat amusing showing of a new pickup truck design to typical buyers. The primary complaint was that the grille did not look manly enough. Of course, additional questions had to be asked to help define "manly" to a group of car designers. This elicited comments like the grille looked "girly." The solution was sharper and heavier looking. This resulted in high approvals.
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What is a Jaguar supposed to look like? Aside from the XK120 and a few 4-cylinders, early post-WWII Jags were large sedans meant to compete with a coachbuilt Rolls Royce at a fraction of the price, and presumable a fraction of the mechanical reliability. A 1949 Jaguar Mark IV really didn’t look all that different than an Austin Princess. Willian Lyons was making cut price luxury cars.

Then came the compact Mark I and the classic Mark II… and Daimler 250, 1963 Jaguar S-type and rehashed 240, 340 and 420. Attractive, but that design language was completely played out by the end of the 1960s. Unless you like various iterations of the Mitsuoka Viewt replica car. Or the failed retro Ford era S-Type revival?

Notice that I failed to mention the immensely cumbersome luxury Mark X and 420G - cars that were too wide for English B-roads and unloved in America. Ultimately, Lyons combined the compact and luxury lines into the intermediate sized XJ6, a product that lived too long and outside of Britain never was truly competitive. Maybe Jaguar should have been killed by British Leyland because Ford ultimately dumped a lot of money into it and so did Tata, with no financial return to show for it. After all the various failed products, what is a Jaguar supposed to look like? In many ways, the brand’s relevance died with wire wheels and the 1960s. Even back then, it was absurd to put weak and inherently imbalanced wire wheels of an E-type that very optimistically could have made 150MPH.

As far as the America market, we now have a gender based dichotomy between feminine crossovers and masculine pickups. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to foreigners but aside from muscle cars and a rare few off-roaders like the Wrangler and Bronco, the pick-up truck is the only gender conforming transport for the successful, steak eating American male. As ludicrous as it seems, even full sized body-on-frame SUVs are largely marketed to women, namely the stereotypical “soccer mom.” I’m a fan of muscle cars in the American idiom (no wire wheels) but even I had to succumb to the allure of an immense 20 foot long truck. And sadly, I’ve used the truck bed for debris and building materials every week since. I need a vacation from DIY.

I’m not sure where that leaves Jaguar, aside from being completely dead and unmissed in North America. Land Rover and Range Rover still live for a demographic of fashionable buyers, although, I can’t see anything there you couldn’t find at a BMW, Mercedes or Audi dealership.
 
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