Iron Dome

Grey Havoc said:
A bit of good news:
https://www.defensenews.com/congres...for-israels-iron-dome-system-in-blowout-vote/
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I read somewhere that they only cost $40k each. Has Israel really used 25,000 of them, or is this cost BS? Officially the Israeli government hasn't released any price and I can't believe they cost 1/10th or 1/20th the price of an AIM-9. Seems like there a '0' missing or something.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article...wback of Iron,whose numbers are being quoted.
 
Forest Green said:
I can't believe they cost 1/10th or 1/20th the price of an AIM-9
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Think of the cost of their targets: Katyushas, not fighters.
Cost has to be low enough to be able to defend against saturation attacks like Hamas tried time and again.
 
dan_inbox said:
Think of the cost of their targets: Katyushas, not fighters.
Cost has to be low enough to be able to defend against saturation attacks like Hamas tried time and again.
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That doesn't explain how the cost got that low when even MANPADS missiles like Stinger cost $120k and AIM-9Xs (passive seekers) cost $400k. It also doesn't explain why the cost of restocking missiles is $1bn (that would be 25,000 missiles at $40k). Unless $40k is just the portion of the cost per missile that Israel pays itself or something.
 
Maybe Tamir have no real seeker but only autopilot with uplink and proximity fuze. All heavy lifting is done by radar that put missile on collision course and activate proximity fuze, self destruct mechanism and that’s it. Please remember that potential targets are not very demanding so Tamir can be quite slow.
 
Hanz2k said:
Maybe Tamir have no real seeker but only autopilot with uplink and proximity fuze. All heavy lifting is done by radar that put missile on collision course and activate proximity fuze, self destruct mechanism and that’s it. Please remember that potential targets are not very demanding so Tamir can be quite slow.
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Not according to Rafael.

1657270376063.png

The contributions from 2011 to 2021 were $1.6bn, and it seems 400 intercepts are made per year roughly, so I know it's an extrapolation but that's 4000 in 10 years, which required a $1bn restock, assuming they replaced all of them, or they used $1.6bn assuming them used all original missiles. So that's $250-400k per missile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome
Iron Dome (Hebrew: כִּפַּת בַּרְזֶל, romanized: Kippat Barzel) is a mobile all-weather air defense system[8] developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and Israel Aerospace Industries.[7] The system is designed to intercept and destroy short-range rockets and artillery shells fired from distances of 4 kilometres (2.5 mi) to 70 kilometres (43 mi) away and whose trajectory would take them to an Israeli populated area.[9][10] From 2011 to 2021, the United States contributed a total of US$ 1.6 billion to the Iron Dome defense system,[11] with another US$ 1 billion approved by the US Congress in 2022.[12]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome#cite_note-reuters16Nov2012-15
In November 2012, official statements indicated that it had intercepted over 400 rockets.[16][17] By late October 2014, the Iron Dome systems had intercepted over 1,200 rockets.[18]
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Defense-Aerospace October 29 article " Is Israel's Iron Dome Missile Defense System Ironclad?"

On Oct. 7 alone, the first day of fighting, Hamas launched at least 2,000 rockets (7,000 total at time of article) // Most of the rockets have been intercepted. But some have managed to get through, killing at least 11 people and hitting buildings as far away as Tel Aviv.
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One interesting quote "The military declined to comment on how many Iron Dome batteries are currently deployed. But as of 2021, Israel had 10 batteries scattered around the country, each able to defend a territory of 60 square miles (155 square kilometers), according to Raytheon."
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If my maths correct would that make the max range of the Iron Dome 3 m long, 160 mm dia, 90 kg Tamir missile 4.4 miles / 7 km, assuming the 60 square miles (155 square kilometers) center of a circle?

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/is-israels-iron-dome-missile-defense-system-ironclad/
 
More out of curiosity, how much does each missile weigh (what goes up etc.) and how many units are fired on average each time the system is activated ?
 
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Hobbes said:
Rocket engines in an environment full of volatile hydrocarbons? What could possibly go wrong?
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you're already getting shot at. If the defensive missile does light something, it's no worse than getting hit with the incoming missile. If it doesn't light anything, who cares?

Also, note that the paint on the front of the launcher doesn't scorch after a shot. So I don't think the exhaust is as hot as you think it is.


bobbymike said:
A few years from now, add a few hundred drones flying low and fast plus lasers for defense.

A scary picture.
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The night of Saturday to Sunday 14th April 2024.

The great Turkey Shoot.


muttly said:
Does anybody in congress know what each other are doing?
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No.
 
Sineva said:
Frankly I`m somewhat surprised this didnt happen a hell of lot earlier,if your air defences dont have the ability to shoot and scoot then they`re basically a sitting duck.
This is even more true now that we`ve entered an era of dirt cheap mass produced pgms
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While true, launchers are cheap. Depending on the defended footprint, there may not be a whole lot of movement Israel can get out of their launchers.

So you make the launchers proper even cheaper and just this side of disposable. Like enough to have 2 typical engagements in them and then you have to haul it out to reload with a fresh launcher. What's expensive is the radars and the data links between them and the launchers.

In the case of this launcher, it looks like the canisters and their frame are toast. But that's a cheap part to replace. The base chassis looks intact. (As a side note, I suspect that this particular launcher was empty or close to it, because the only damage is the external impact and explosion. If it would have been loaded, there would have been massive damage to the launcher from secondary explosion(s).)
 
In these pictures you can see the missing pieces, which are major pieces in the dome, such as the antenna, the hydraulic jacks, and the reinforced base.
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The system that Hezbollah struck, claiming it was an Iron Dome system, turned out to be a deception dummy and did not have a hydraulic crane or a reinforced base.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1798767804583383063
View: https://x.com/Military_OSTX/status/1798767804583383063

https://www.twz.com/news-features/w...t-its-almas-missiles-are-a-problem-for-israel
 
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How effective these interceptions were? The pics below show a missile that landed on someone's roof in IL. Could this happen because an Iron Dome interceptor stroke the incoming missile, or could the missile simply fail?

photo_2024-10-01_20-09-37.jpg photo_2024-10-01_20-09-34.jpg
 
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Diificult to say looking at the rear of it. Clearly the fin leading edge on the left is damaged though unless it's just poor workmanship. There's also a door hinge on the roof. Target doesn't look too military either.

From above links:
There were no immediate reports of casualties as Israel ordered residents to head to bomb shelters and as air raid sirens sounded across the country.
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Israeli army radio said nearly 200 missiles had been launched into Israel from Iran. Iran's Revolutionary Guards said Iran had launched tens of missiles at Israel, and that if Israel retaliated Tehran's response would be "more crushing and ruinous".
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yahya said:
One clear interception per dozens of incoming missiles.

https://t.me/medmannews/11429
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Well you can see several interceptions in that video but it probably depends where the missiles are going to land. If they're pointing at sand, little point wasting an interceptor on them.

Lot's of interception heres, because it's obviously over somewhere important.
Post #67
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/iron-dome.17793/post-715410
The proof of the pudding will be in the satellite photos.
 
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Iron Dome is optimized for shorter-range and thus slower missiles and rockets. Most of the successful engagements are probably by David's Sling, which would be making its intercepts well away from Tel Aviv or other Israeli cities. What we are probably seeing in video are last-ditch attempts against leakers. Iron Dome probably won't make most of those because the targets are just too fast.
 
That's what I suspected. There are reports circulating that Iran used hypersonic missiles, too, in today's attack.
 
I think propaganda from all sides boasting of their own equipment has caused some misconceptions, and recorded failures of these various systems can mislead people as well. Also as others have pointed out Iran is using some missiles that are near the edge or outside the edge of the iron dome missile envelope. I have seen some people unaware of these facts and this has caused people to say some misguided stuff. Even good osint people and defense experts make these kinds of mistakes at times.

I want to add another thought that even very good surface to air missile systems can be oversaturated and/or overcome. It should be remembered that company and stste tests of these missile systems is not exhaustive, and the kill percentage is not based upon every imaginable scenario.

Edit: added extra thought
 
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