Info on the BAe LWSPH (Light Weight Self Propelled Howitzer)??

[Pioneer]

Sorry gents, but I have just come across this picture of an unknown SPH
All I have on it is that it's the BAe LWSPH (proposal to mount a M777 155mm howitzer on the back of a LAV chassis)

Your help on information, specs and drawings would be very interesting!!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Sorry gents, but I have just come across this picture of an unknown SPH
All I have on it is that it's the BAe LWSPH (proposal to mount a M777 155mm howitzer on the back of a LAV chassis)

The patent information for this weapon is on this forum somewhere. The mechanics of the system is a copy of the Soviet SP 240mm heavy mortar. The gun ordnance swings to the rear on a support arm and shoots behind the vehicle. A very elegant and simple solution.

 

[Pioneer]

Hey thanks Abraham Gubler!
Could you post me the link for this info for this forum? ;D
Was it intended for Army or Marine use?
Does the design have an actual name or designation??

Regards
Pioneer

 

[ouroboros]

For some reason I am having trouble visualizing the autoloader arrangement for this. Which I assume it must have, based on the desires for MRSI, and there seems to be no ready round storage around the gun carriage itself. Would the gun lay down flat to the rear of the vehicle for reloading, or perhaps some sort of vertical reload arrangement?

 

[lastdingo]

MRSI doesn't take an autoloader, automatic laying is more than enough.
The barrel has a moderate length, limiting the maximum MRSI count anyway.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Could you post me the link for this info for this forum? ;D
Was it intended for Army or Marine use?
Does the design have an actual name or designation??

Attached to this post is the patent for the self propelled gun. This was the self propelled concept for the Vickers (now BAE Systems) Ultralight-weight Field Howitzer (UFH, aka M777). It copied the carriage and loading mechanism of the Soviet 2S4 “Tulip” 240mm mortar for over the shoulder carriage and shooting. Originally it used the 52 calibre barrel version of the VSEL UFH on a MOWAG 10x10 Piranha (aka LAV) but for the US Army’s Stryker competition artillery system the shorter 39 calibre barrel was combined with a 8x8 LAV III. This system was in offer definition competition with GDLS and the South African G7 105mm gun. Unfortunately the artillery component of Stryker was cancelled. The only name I’ve heard associated with this system is Light Wight Self Propelled Howitzer (LWSPH).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

For some reason I am having trouble visualizing the autoloader arrangement for this. Which I assume it must have, based on the desires for MRSI, and there seems to be no ready round storage around the gun carriage itself. Would the gun lay down flat to the rear of the vehicle for reloading, or perhaps some sort of vertical reload arrangement?

The patent should help. In short what happens is the gun is mounted in a cradle that holds it above the vehicle’s hull for transport. For firing the cradle swings the gun down and to the rear of the vehicle planting the gun on a spade with the barrel facing to the rear. It then shoots and to reload the barrel is simply depressed to level with the ground, the breech swings open and a new round slides out from the back of the vehicle into the chamber. The barrel is then elevated and trained to target and fired.

 

[Old_ROF]

This was an early concept for the SPH variant of the FCS system by BAE Systems in conjunction with UDLP of the US. It only ever got as far as these illustrations of the concept and an animated video which showed it in 'operation' - unfortunately seen but not got.

This was superceeded by a later concept which incorporated a slightly modified version of the standard upper carriage of the M777 Howitzer (M776 L/39 cannon) incorporated into a minimal turret system on a wheeled or tracked vehicle. This developed into the NLOS-CTD (Non Line-of-Sight - Concept Technology Demonstrator) which then evolved into the full NLOS-C system with a specically designed turret mounting the lightweight 155mm L/38 XM324 cannon. Both these systems were loaded automatically from a charge/shell magazine located in the body of the vehicle.

 

[Matt R.]

BAE Systems Looks To Sell M777s To The UAE (May 12, 2016)

"The M777 model suggested the gun is lowered from its travelling position on top of the crew compartment so that it can be fired in the opposite direction from the one the vehicle is facing."

"While the crew of a M777-Enigma will apparently have to exit the vehicle to fire the gun, the system will presumably be significantly lighter and more transportable than the G6-45, which has a combat weight of about 49 tonnes. A towed M777 weighs 4.1 tonnes and the Enigma is expected to weigh about 28 tonnes."

Emirates Defense Technology To Develop Self-Propelled Artillery (May 8, 2016)

 

[cluttonfred]

It certainly looks cool but I don't understand the logic of an SPG with the crew unprotected during firing in this day and age. Have they never heard of counter-battery fire?

 

[TomS]

I think the UAE is unlikely to be using its artillery against an opponent with competent counterbattery capability. And this could at least use shoot-and-scoot tactics, which a towed gun cannot.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

It certainly looks cool but I don't understand the logic of an SPG with the crew unprotected during firing in this day and age. Have they never heard of counter-battery fire?

There is no personnel outside the LWSPH during its firing sequence. Its automatically deployed, trained and loaded.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I think the UAE is unlikely to be using its artillery against an opponent with competent counterbattery capability. And this could at least use shoot-and-scoot tactics, which a towed gun cannot.

Towed guns can shoot and scoot. The key difference is the SPG has armour and the gun tractor is usually a soft skin vehicle. Anyway the whole point of having an SPG is it can keep firing even when it is targetted by ECB. Thanks to its armour. So the grunts and tanks dont have to go without their vital fire support.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

A 155mm SPG like AS90 or M109 will cease fire and relocate when under any credible counter-battery fire, just as a towed gun would, for the simple reason that a 152-155mm shell scoring either a direct hit or a very near miss will put it out of action.

The word “credible” has immense breadth. Back in the day of statistical fires (ie no precision weapons) even dedicated CB fire required quite a few rounds of very heavy shells to achieve neutralisation and even more to achieve destruction. Especially if the location of the hostile battery being targeted by CB was determined by less precise methods like sound ranging or flash spotting. This enables a self-propelled battery with suitable armoured vehicles to complete its fire mission before displacement. And that is in a high intensity battlefield.

The only kind of non-precise CB fires that would achieve neutralisation of a battery of SPGs within the time difference between immediate displacement and finishing even the longest of fire missions (which the start of would have presumably provided the HB signature needed to generate the CB fires) would be a heavy group (30-50) of very heavy guns (>200mm).

Then of course there is the very real threat of non-CB indirect fires against artillery. Enemy preparation fires or attempts to interdict lines of communication with artillery mandate SPG armour. In the same way that infantry mobility needs to be provided by APCs. Not for protecting against direct fires during toe to toe fighting but against artillery splinters while moving up to and from the battle.

A true SPG further increases its survivability by being able to go mobile much faster than a towed system that has disassembly and hook-up time.

Not really. The time difference between an analogue SP battery and a towed one going into and out of action is not significant as long as the towed battery is working with their tractors on the gunline. Most SPGs are light enough to require the deployment of recoil spades into the ground which need to be retracted and sometimes even dug out before they can move, plus the gun barrel needs to be locked into its cradle and parallelescopes retrieved (aiming posts and tannoy wire can be abandoned).

Digitalisation changes things but then again towed guns like the M777A2 are fully digital too.