India's 5th generation fighter programme - from MCA to AMCA

[Gessler]

Some screengrabs from that video and others like it, found on various forums & social media:

TSA/Vivaldi antennas for TRMs, dipoles for IFF?

 

[Gessler]

For the record, this DRDO-owned A319 is earmarked to be the FTB for the AMCA's main avionics (radar, DAS & others):

Latest I've heard is that some of the modification work has commenced.

 

[WatcherZero]

Rolls Royce and Reliance announce they have agreed to partner on the development of an engine for the AMCA and to explore the possibility of opening a plant in India to manufacture aerospace gas turbines.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/p...ous-combat-engine-for-the-amca-programme.aspx

 

[FighterJock]

That is news WatcherZero, getting a Rolls Royce engine to power the AMCA would be a major coup for India and would be better for them than trying to get an equivalent US engine installed.

 

[Gessler]

That is news WatcherZero, getting a Rolls Royce engine to power the AMCA would be a major coup for India and would be better for them than trying to get an equivalent US engine installed.

The proposed partnership is for developing an engine to serve as AMCA's 'definitive' next-gen powerplant, which would only be installed on the AMCA Mk-2. The GTRE-SAFRAN partnership to develop a 120-140 kN engine is also for that requirement, and is also arguably the frontrunner.

The interim US engine (F414) is planned for the prototypes as well as series-production run of AMCA Mk-1 (assumed to be about ~40 airframes or thereabout). The GTRE-SAFRAN partnership or the competing Reliance-RR partnership will not change that.

The Mk-1/Mk-2 division is a way to de-risk the program by not letting the next-gen engine hold up the entire project. This way, even if the NGE doesn't come, they can just continue building more Mk1-spec airframes with proven F414s (maybe even upgrade to EPE). The plane won't be able to realize its full designed capabilities without the electrical output of a NG engine, but a stealthy airframe has its own advantages and would still be a more survivable platform than a 4th/4.5 gen on a given mission.

 

[Austin]

The Tejas, Tejas Mk2 and AMCA situation-
The AMCA- a technology demonstrator-based approach Prof. Prodyut Das

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Some screengrabs from that video and others like it, found on various forums & social media:

Are these CADs official from DRDO/ADA? Still hazy, blurred.
I see local news channel "India TV" watermark in video.
At least 5-6 people have made CAD so far which news & YT channels use.
The CAD which i made is based on drawing used in official infographics, but the creators are not ready to share good resolution & clear pics & diagrams.

 

[Gessler]

Are these CADs official from DRDO/ADA? Still hazy, blurred.

Yes, all of these are official graphics.

I see local news channel "India TV" watermark in video.

Media was given a tour of ADA offices, that's why the watermark.

At least 5-6 people have made CAD so far which news & YT channels use.
The CAD which i made is based on drawing used in official infographics, but the creators are not ready to share good resolution & clear pics & diagrams.

Well, if you're approaching people/companies that made the original CGIs for ADA, the renders would be ADA property. The creators can't share anything without ADA approval.

If you're talking about 3rd party artists who made AMCA models, it's up to them.

Some more official renders I found:

^^ Renders are from OEM, same as in the 1st pic (perhaps upscaled), annotations are 3rd party/fan-made.

 

[Scott Kenny]

What's the TARA missile? anti-radar?

 

[Gessler]

What's the TARA missile? anti-radar?

All ARMs are under the Rudram-series AFAIK.

The TARA series are range extension kits (with choice of INS/GPS & EO/IR seekers) for converting dumb bombs. Basically a JDAM/Hammer equivalent.

I think the 'missile' part is a mistranslation. You can see they're even calling that Paveway-looking LGB a 'missile'.

 

[Low IQ Techie]

Well, if you're approaching people/companies that made the original CGIs for ADA, the renders would be ADA property. The creators can't share anything without ADA approval.

If you're talking about 3rd party artists who made AMCA models, it's up to them.

IDK any of those CAD guys. I guess Kuntal Biswas is under contract with DoD.
Rest are casual guys. Perhaps they want to sell their CAD on 3D sites.
But what i'm saying is that static models at Aero India are accessible to public but its some online pics & videos are poor quality, like orthographic views are small &/or hazy like this one below -

The orthographic views (front, top, bottom, side, rear) are needed for modelling, to connect the vertices & edges in right way in 3D.

 

[Erdosain]

Reliance, Rolls-Royce to explore local engine for India’s AMCA​

https://www.flightglobal.com/propul...oyce-to-explore-local-engine-for-indias-amca/

 

[BonPlan2]

All ARMs are under the Rudram-series AFAIK.

The TARA series are range extension kits (with choice of INS/GPS & EO/IR seekers) for converting dumb bombs. Basically a JDAM/Hammer equivalent.

View attachment 821551

I think the 'missile' part is a mistranslation. You can see they're even calling that Paveway-looking LGB a 'missile'.

the wings are under the bomb core ? How they deploy ?

 

[Scott Kenny]

the wings are under the bomb core ? How they deploy ?

Looks like a single wing that pivots on the center point.

 

[Gessler]

the wings are under the bomb core ? How they deploy ?

I think the wing(s) are always on the bottom when being carried/released, same for JDAM-ER (1st pic attached below). The bomb flips over once it falls to a safe distance, and glides from there. This video is from War Thunder but shows the mechanic accurately:

Looks like a single wing that pivots on the center point.

That's right (2nd pic).

 

[books]

Defensenews reports that India is making overtures to join France's new SCAF/post-SCAF sixth gen fighter effort.

It's seemingly a step beyond the exploratory talks they were holding with both the SCAF and GCAP teams not long ago, in that it's an actual pitch rather than just kicking the tires, i.e. a courtship of one specific partner rather than playing the field. IMO it sounds like a great match, and as the article mentions, the tech transfers could be highly useful for AMCA too.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...-in-frances-sixth-generation-fighter-program/

 

[snne]

Defensenews reports that India is making overtures to join France's new SCAF/post-SCAF sixth gen fighter effort.

It's seemingly a step beyond the exploratory talks they were holding with both the SCAF and GCAP teams not long ago, in that it's an actual pitch rather than just kicking the tires, i.e. a courtship of one specific partner rather than playing the field. IMO it sounds like a great match, and as the article mentions, the tech transfers could be highly useful for AMCA too.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...-in-frances-sixth-generation-fighter-program/

India joining the French 5.5th-gen effort and setting up local production would negate the operational rationale for AMCA, given that it's targeting roughly the same testing and delivery timelines -- albeit, achieving them would theoretically be easier with a traditional 5th-gen design.

Meanwhile, the industrial objective of developing network-centric, advanced LO aircraft could arguably be met through the development of higher-end fighter-adjacent UCAVs as well... (Think UADF Types A & B/Kizilelma/LM Vectis/initial Airbus Wingman design)

 

[FighterJock]

That would be good for both countries development wise.

 

[Gessler]

India joining the French 5.5th-gen effort and setting up local production would negate the operational rationale for AMCA, given that it's targeting roughly the same testing and delivery timelines -- albeit, achieving them would theoretically be easier with a traditional 5th-gen design.

Meanwhile, the industrial objective of developing network-centric, advanced LO aircraft could arguably be met through the development of higher-end fighter-adjacent UCAVs as well... (Think UADF Types A & B/Kizilelma/LM Vectis/initial Airbus Wingman design)

IAF would primarily be interested in FCAS/GCAP as a potential future replacement for Su-30MKIs in the air superiority role. The Navy might also be interested but let's leave that aside for now. Whether India joins either of these programs or not will most likely be measured against their suitability for that requirement.

AMCA is a 27-ton medium fighter meant to replace the MiG-29 & Mirage-2000 fleets as a swingrole jet. It's the F-35 to the FCAS/GCAP's F-22/F-47. It was never meant to replace the MKI and never will. The 114 Rafales actually will have greater overlap with its roles than either of those next-gen fighters.

One wouldn't really eat the other's lunch for the same reason the UK/Japan/Italy's GCAP procurement doesn't negate each of their F-35 purchases. Different roles.

 

[Scott Kenny]

IAF would primarily be interested in FCAS/GCAP as a potential future replacement for Su-30MKIs in the air superiority role. The Navy might also be interested but let's leave that aside for now. Whether India joins either of these programs or not will most likely be measured against their suitability for that requirement.

AMCA is a 27-ton medium fighter meant to replace the MiG-29 & Mirage-2000 fleets as a swingrole jet. It's the F-35 to the FCAS/GCAP's F-22/F-47. It was never meant to replace the MKI and never will. The 114 Rafales actually will have greater overlap with its roles than either of those next-gen fighters.

SCAF/French 6gen will have a whole lot of power replacing whatever the Indians are using for their carrier aircraft. Rafales and Mig29Ks? So it'd be a challenge to the TEDBF program.

SCAF/Fr6G would also have good capabilities for replacing Flankers.

 

[Gessler]

SCAF/French 6gen will have a whole lot of power replacing whatever the Indians are using for their carrier aircraft. Rafales and Mig29Ks? So it'd be a challenge to the TEDBF program.

SCAF/Fr6G would also have good capabilities for replacing Flankers.

I'm above 90% certain that TEDBF will never be funded, at least in its current form. Especially if Navy goes through with the additional 31 Rafale-Ms as is rumoured.

Vikramaditya (ex-Adm Gorshkov/Baku) will more than likely see early retirement (I'd say between 2035-2040 tops). MiGs will see it through to the end. They won't have it turn into another Kuznetsov when there's a local yard (CSL) that's itching to build more carriers.

With 26+31 Rafale Ms, the Vikrant will have more than enough airframes for a high ops tempo. Rafale's still got an upgrade path ahead of it (F5, F6 and so on), so if they go through with an order for a 2nd ship of the Vikrant-class (its among the proposals to keep the CSL yard happy, last I heard), additional Rafales are probably the better, safer & cheaper option than pursuing TEDBF in its current form, which is meant to be a STOBAR-optimized design, and all for a production run of less than 100 airframes.

Rafale will likely have enough airframe life to serve till the STOBAR ships retire, especially if backed up by stealthy CCAs in the next decade. IMO, it's only the future CATOBAR carriers that are worth pursuing a new naval fighter for.

And I think the navy is also evolving its deck-based fighter requirement toward that end (see attached)...it might ultimately come down to either a navalized AMCA or the French 6G that's supposed to go on PANG/France Libre.

But the navy/govt still haven't made a definitive call on the future carrier plans (like size, number, N-propulsion or not), so I doubt they'll be in a hurry for that role. IAF would be the service that's much more interested in the near future.

 

[Ainen]

IAF would primarily be interested in FCAS/GCAP as a potential future replacement for Su-30MKIs in the air superiority role. The Navy might also be interested but let's leave that aside for now. Whether India joins either of these programs or not will most likely be measured against their suitability for that requirement.

AMCA is a 27-ton medium fighter meant to replace the MiG-29 & Mirage-2000 fleets as a swingrole jet. It's the F-35 to the FCAS/GCAP's F-22/F-47. It was never meant to replace the MKI and never will. The 114 Rafales actually will have greater overlap with its roles than either of those next-gen fighters.

One wouldn't really eat the other's lunch for the same reason the UK/Japan/Italy's GCAP procurement doesn't negate each of their F-35 purchases. Different roles.

This is hardly the way it works, two products on same timeline will unavoidably raise questions. With especially the French FCAS likely being on the smaller side(30t-ish?) of heavy spectrum, running an advanced variant of medium engines(like J-35), they're certainly right next to each other.
GCAP may be further away from AMCA indeed, but that train is apparently already in motion.

 

[Scott Kenny]

This is hardly the way it works, two products on same timeline will unavoidably raise questions. With especially the French FCAS likely being on the smaller side(30t-ish?) of heavy spectrum, running an advanced variant of medium engines(like J-35), they're certainly right next to each other.
GCAP may be further away from AMCA indeed, but that train is apparently already in motion.

I think it'll be closer to 33-35 tonnes, ~72-77klbs. Tomcat sized.

 

[BonPlan2]

India joining the French 5.5th-gen effort

What is this famous 5.5 jet ???

 

[Titus]

What is this famous 5.5 jet ???

It is 27.5% more advanced than a 4.5 gen jet. (But only approx. 25% more advanced than a 4.5+++ gen jet.)