India's 5th generation fighter programme - from MCA to AMCA

2035 as an in service date for AMCA? That is pushing it a bit far because the UK,US and China will have 6th generation fighters operating by then.
 
This. Indian Aerospace design/test/production process always manages to underwhelm me. It's very sad because I definitely root for them but goodness gracious they just can't seem to get a military project out of the design phase and into production - at least at scale.
 
By the way somewhere here on the Forum there's a picture of Prime Minister Modi sitting in the cockpit of a Tejas fighter and the metal work shown in the photograph is atrocious. It's almost like they learned to do airframe manufacturer from assembling early model Mig-21s or something.
 
Anduriel said:
What they did between 2011 and 2024? I remember programme starting in 2011 hell, this topic itself is dated back then.
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India's earliest attempt to acquire 5gen was through cooperation with Russia on the PAK FA (predecessor of the Su57). Therefore, the AMCA program began after India withdrew from the PAK FA project (around 2008).
Anduriel said:
That's hilarious. They couln't make a 4-gen engine with the help of Russia and France, and now they're going to develop 6-gen engine?
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IAF claims it requires a force structure of 42 squadrons × 18 aircraft = 756 tactical jets.
After the 2019 air skirmish, IAF lost confidence in Russian-made fighters. Meanwhile, Western alternatives (e.g.,Typhoon, F-35) with technological parity or superiority to the Rafale are prohibitively expensive for filling this authorized strength gap.
Even the LCA Mk2 (still in the conceptual/PPT phase) fails to meet the IAF’s operational requirements.
Therefore, whether it is realistic or just a paper project, the IAF must develop a program to address the theoretical force shortfall and eventually replace aging Su-30s.
 
GTX said:
Turkey, they were a Level 3 Partner in the development and would have received until 2018 when the U.S. Senate passed a bill blocking the transfer of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey. 6 aircraft have nominally been produced for them but they are all in the USA.
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You're just paraphrasing and extending upon what I stated, that the US didn't hand the F-35 to Turkey (a development partner and important NATO member) due to security concerns.

India operates the very same SAM system that sparked the security concerns brought up against the sale of F-35s to Turkey. On top of arguably being much more strategically ambiguous than Turkey ever could be (due to NATO membership). Meaning that if the Turks can't get their F-35s, I doubt India will ever see one outside of air shows and exercises. And if they would be sold F-35, which again is doubtful for all the above and many more issues, there would be a huge diplomatic uproar from Anatolia as to why someone infinitely less trustworthy receives equipment they were denied (despite them having paid for it).

As I said, what the US government says and what they do are two very different things. And that's not some political statement, that's something that has historically happened.
 
EmoBirb said:
You're just paraphrasing and extending upon what I stated, that the US didn't hand the F-35 to Turkey (a development partner and important NATO member) due to security concerns.

India operates the very same SAM system that sparked the security concerns brought up against the sale of F-35s to Turkey. On top of arguably being much more strategically ambiguous than Turkey ever could be (due to NATO membership). Meaning that if the Turks can't get their F-35s, I doubt India will ever see one outside of air shows and exercises. And if they would be sold F-35, which again is doubtful for all the above and many more issues, there would be a huge diplomatic uproar from Anatolia as to why someone infinitely less trustworthy receives equipment they were denied (despite them having paid for it).
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Please refer to my responses in the F-35 thread as to why this scenario is unlikely to occur.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/search/1391109/?c[users]=snne&o=relevance

P.S. Turkey is no longer as vital to U.S. foreign policy as it was during the Cold War, nor is it currently a central focus.
 
GTX said:
Fresh news: India approves stealth fighter programme amid tensions with Pakistan
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They like approved it for like what, 4th time?

Going deeper it seems, the kind of consortium that will manufacture it is approved, with state owned HAL/ADA being primary integrators and private companies being teir 1,2,3 suppliers.
Previous attempts were to have private companies play a major role,and state owned ones supervising them, which didn't work out, as no private company in India has expertise to manufacture modern fighter jets.
It also seems funding for prototype development was halted because the private-public model was not decided till now.


God, their decision making is a disastrous mess.
 
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mokahete said:
They like approved it for like what, 4th time?

Going deeper it seems, the kind of consortium that will manufacture it is approved, with state owned HAL/ADA being primary integrators and private companies being teir 1,2,3 suppliers.
Previous attempts were to have private companies play a major role,and state owned ones supervising them, which didn't work out, as no private company in India has expertise to manufacture modern fighter jets.
It also seems funding for prototype development was halted because the private-public model was not decided.


God, their decision making is a disastrous mess.
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Look for money behind everything. The level of corruption is proportional to the openness of the project to private capital. It doesn't matter whether it is foreign or domestic.
This project has been rotting from the beginning, and even though it has been politically kicked off by the Rafale fiasco, its fate is sealed.

Buy F-35 or build Su-57.
 
I think that it will likely be the Su-57 that India eventually goes for too Anduriel, they have taken far too long over the AMCA and for it to enter service in 2035 it will be out dated by the time that it does reach the squadrons.
 
Su-57 will be a pretty bad last shot. Russia hasn't demonstrate that it can expedite the production to a pace acceptable for a re-arming nation like India, they pretty much can't spare anything for anyone other than themselves, so if India buys in they'd be all alone flailing around with pretty much paper solutions.

KF-21 is the only realistic option here, India has the money, SK has good tough negotiators whom can bite back, the pipeline is well defined and stuff is already showing up on the line.
 
yeetmahboi said:
Su-57 will be a pretty bad last shot. Russia hasn't demonstrate that it can expedite the production to a pace acceptable for a re-arming nation like India, they pretty much can't spare anything for anyone other than themselves, so if India buys in they'd be all alone flailing around with pretty much paper solutions.

KF-21 is the only realistic option here, India has the money, SK has good tough negotiators whom can bite back, the pipeline is well defined and stuff is already showing up on the line.
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Yet Russia confident enough in production rate to supply Algeria Su-57.

And KF-21 is not a 5 gen until block 3. Which is unlikely to happen until 2032, when bl.2 production for ROKAF is completed.
 
yeetmahboi said:
Su-57 will be a pretty bad last shot. Russia hasn't demonstrate that it can expedite the production to a pace acceptable for a re-arming nation like India, they pretty much can't spare anything for anyone other than themselves, so if India buys in they'd be all alone flailing around with pretty much paper solutions.

KF-21 is the only realistic option here, India has the money, SK has good tough negotiators whom can bite back, the pipeline is well defined and stuff is already showing up on the line.
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Kf21 right now is a non stealth jet, at most low obersbable.
While it does look like a stealth jet( f22), but if you dig deeper, the difference between stealth varient of kf21 and current one, will be same as f18 and F18 SH, basically a new jet/airframe.

So no, unlike what has been said, and space in its airframe for iwb, kf21 is not a 5th gen or potential 5th gen jet, the effort needed for kf21 block 3(5th gen stealth varient) will be same as biulding a new type of jet.
 
FighterJock said:
I think that it will likely be the Su-57 that India eventually goes for too Anduriel, they have taken far too long over the AMCA and for it to enter service in 2035 it will be out dated by the time that it does reach the squadrons.
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The only 6th gen tech you can't put in f35, j20 is higher electrical power (~1mw or more, though blk4 f35 already reaching close to 500kva of electrical peak power).
Another thing would be better stealth, especially against S/L/VHF due to absence of vertical tails, but european 6th gen concepts do feature canted vertical tails.
As for rest, you can.
Instead of seeing jets like f35,j20, j35 as 5th gen and 6th gen as next gen.
It's much better to view it through naval lens, consider f35, j20, j35, amca as ~4000-6000ton frigate, and 6th gen as 10k+ton cruiser/ddg, it's not to say frigate( upgraded with the same tech as found in ddg) is less advanced but it can't do things the large ddg/cruiser/flag ship/command ship can do.
 
mokahete said:
the difference between stealth varient of kf21 and current one, will be same as f18 and F18 SH, basically a new jet/airframe.

So no, unlike what has been said, and space in its airframe for iwb, kf21 is not a 5th gen or potential 5th gen jet, the effort needed for kf21 block 3(5th gen stealth varient) will be same as biulding a new type of jet
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I don't know where this comes from? KAI engineers say the aircraft is designed with unused compartments for avionics integration and conformal sensors, bulkhead structures clearly reflect on this design approach.

Expert eyeball?
 
mokahete said:
It's much better to view it through naval lens, consider f35, j20, j35, amca as ~4000-6000ton frigate, and 6th gen as 10k+ton cruiser/ddg, it's not to say frigate( upgraded with the same tech as found in ddg) is less advanced but it can't do things the large ddg/cruiser/flag ship/command ship can do.
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Generation and size are explicitly different things.
You can, in principle, make a piranha on 6th gen solutions, and we certainly had oversized fighters before.
 
KF-21 as it is, is not really what India wants, even if they really want some sort of stop gap fighter force before AMCA. Like I've said before, if there was real sense of urgency, MRFA programme wouldn't have been dragging its feet like it has been for the last 7 years.

Also a stop gap 5th gen fighter, as some have pointed out, isn't really within reach. Out of 3 stealth fighter producers, one will never sell any fighter jet to India, one sounds ambiguous but is pretty clear that they wouldn't sell anything cutting edge, and the last doesn't have an adequate capacity, unless for example India directly invests in their industrial capacity, ala Australia's investment into US nuke sube construction infrastructure in AUKUS. Apart from the fact that India doesn't seem interested in doing so from FGFA, it will spark a huge resentment in Europe. The Turks are trying to induct KAAN by the turn of the decade, but at that point, it's not much of a stop-gap procurement anymore. Of course, that is unless they again fail to meet the 2036 deadline.

Basically India is in a limbo and until 2036, when the AMCA is supposed to be introduced into IAF force mix, there wouldn't be any new 5th gen (+) figther that will become available for them.
 
Maro.Kyo said:
I don't know where this comes from? KAI engineers say the aircraft is designed with unused compartments for avionics integration and conformal sensors, bulkhead structures clearly reflect on this design approach.

Expert eyeball?
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KF-21 right now do not feature a canted and serrated radome, serrated paneling for construction, serrated engine nozzles, meshed and angular auxiliary intakes/cooling vents(Right now it has rectangular ones with right angles) and also no angular EOTS aperture. If they want to go fully stealth on the level with other contemporary 5th gen like F-35/F-22/J-20/J-35 with Blk. 3 they'd need to sort this out which seems like pretty major airframe changes IMO.
 
Ainen said:
Generation and size are explicitly different things.
You can, in principle, make a piranha on 6th gen solutions, and we certainly had oversized fighters before.
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Yeah, but 6th gen don't really seem to have generational leap In a sense of the tech that can't be put into 5th gen airframes.
You can put 5th gen tech in 4th gen airframes, but stealth will remain a massive factor, and designing a stealthy airframe and coating/making it with stealthy materials was a next gen tech.
For 6th gen, except their massive increase in power generation and Powerfull avionics, I don't see any new tech right now that 5th gen can't be upgraded with.

So to me, the difference between upgraded 5th gen airframes with 6th gen tech and 6th gen jets seems more like a difference between a frigate and ddg rather Than difference between f16 and f35.
 
Tomboy said:
KF-21 right now do not feature a canted and serrated radome, serrated paneling for construction, serrated engine nozzles, meshed and angular auxiliary intakes/cooling vents(Right now it has rectangular ones with right angles) and also no angular EOTS aperture. At least Blk. 1 seems this way, there's a lot of small details that reflect that this design may not be a fully stealth one but just LO. If they want to go fully stealth on the level with other contemporary 5th gen like F-35/F-22/J-20/J-35 with Blk. 3 they'd need to sort this out which seems like pretty major airframe changes IMO.
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Read original comment again. I don't disagree that building KF-21EX would be a major and extensive alteration of the current airframe, but his analogy is legacy Hornet and Super Hornet, which was, as he described himself, basically a new aircraft. They are structurally almost completely different, from the bulkhead itself.

F-17 Cobra and legacy Hornet were never designed with Super Hornet in mind. The term "Super Hornet" when first conceived was also used for a wildly different aircraft design. KF-X was designed from the ground up with iterative evolution. It paid the price in inefficient use of airframe space. They are not the same.

Last but not least, I think we shouldn't further derail this thread with topics better suited for other threads.
 
Maro.Kyo said:
I don't know where this comes from? KAI engineers say the aircraft is designed with unused compartments for avionics integration and conformal sensors, bulkhead structures clearly reflect on this design approach.

Expert eyeball?
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Heard it from a guy who is one of the maintainers for F18SH for Australian airforce, he wrote a big passage in discord about this topic.
 
mokahete said:
Heard it from a guy who is one of the maintainers for F18SH for Australian airforce, he wrote a big passage in discord server about this topic.
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For that I'd refer ro the comment I've posted just above. Also I don't think an Aussie Super Bug maintenance personnel would be in anyway be half as knowledgeable about construction of KF-21. I've heard this either first hand from my visit to seminars and defence trade shows (to confirm what I've heard) or through second hand sources, wither people I know on the internet or media interview with KAI personnel.
 
mokahete said:
Kf21 right now is a non stealth jet, at most low obersbable.
While it does look like a stealth jet( f22), but if you dig deeper, the difference between stealth varient of kf21 and current one, will be same as f18 and F18 SH, basically a new jet/airframe.

So no, unlike what has been said, and space in its airframe for iwb, kf21 is not a 5th gen or potential 5th gen jet, the effort needed for kf21 block 3(5th gen stealth varient) will be same as biulding a new type of jet.
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Stealth is low observables. Please don't throw out words you don't know the meaning of.

What is obvious is that KAI has a clear cut roadmap for eventual production of the Block III KF-21 and we have seen from the fuselage cutouts that plenty of spaces are reserved for the weapon bay and the associated mechanisms to bring about its operation. And what is obvious is that the Block III and the necessitated modifications is planned from the onset while SupaBug is definitely not.
Anduriel said:
And KF-21 is not a 5 gen until block 3. Which is unlikely to happen until 2032, when bl.2 production for ROKAF is completed.
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Now please don't make me bring up ol Felon's non-stealthy bits.... No other aircraft thread in SPF history has so many pages of pure rage and quarrels even close to it, I'm not even touching that pile of rubbish.
You get what you pay (and specified for). 4.5 gen (as claimed by ROKAF) competitive with other offerings on the market and upgradable to 5th gen.

Also, the scale of the Algeria deal and a potential Indian Su-57 buy is so different in so many aspects that comparing them is simply apples to orange. But one thing we do know is that the numbers are still counting and it's not promising.
 
yeetmahboi said:
You get what you pay (and specified for). 4.5 gen (as claimed by ROKAF) competitive with other offerings on the market and upgradable to 5th gen.
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Developable.
But this is a point we should keep in mind - 5th gen airframe matters when you (don't want to) let someone shoot at you.

Other bits of 5th generation, like proper and full AESA integration from day one, aren't a problem here.

And here's the deal with AMCA - the goal is of course that by then everything will be the same as for everybody else, i.e. national weapons, national electronics, national sensors.
But in India, until now, the most stable thing is permanence of temporary solutions. What's the chance we are going to see an export constructor? How will entire process of integration of lots of international weapons into iwb jet will look like?
 
yeetmahboi said:
Stealth is low observables. Please don't throw out words you don't know the meaning of.

What is obvious is that KAI has a clear cut roadmap for eventual production of the Block III KF-21 and we have seen from the fuselage cutouts that plenty of spaces are reserved for the weapon bay and the associated mechanisms to bring about its operation. And what is obvious is that the Block III and the necessitated modifications is planned from the onset while SupaBug is definitely not.

Now please don't make me bring up ol Felon's non-stealthy bits.... No other aircraft thread in SPF history has so many pages of pure rage and quarrels even close to it, I'm not even touching that pile of rubbish.
You get what you pay (and specified for). 4.5 gen (as claimed by ROKAF) competitive with other offerings on the market and upgradable to 5th gen.

Also, the scale of the Algeria deal and a potential Indian Su-57 buy is so different in so many aspects that comparing them is simply apples to orange. But one thing we do know is that the numbers are still counting and it's not promising.
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Stealth is VLO not LO, hope you learn.
And even with space left and roadmap, extensive changes in airframe design need to be made, making of blk3, given they would also put 5th gen level avionics, computing, power generation, and new engines is paramount to developing a new fighter jet.
 
The only realistic approach is to "walk on two legs" – using the Su-57 as an emergency solution while ramping up the R&D efforts for the AMCA. However, personally, I feel that India doesn't actually have an urgent need for these...
 
I dont know kaan has been moving so fast I think it could have a real shot for India even if the kf-21 is probably more likely. India is not getting the felon and its not getting the litning and frankly nothing India has done shows to me that amca is getting done this century.
 
pagliacci said:
The only realistic approach is to "walk on two legs" – using the Su-57 as an emergency solution while ramping up the R&D efforts for the AMCA. However, personally, I feel that India doesn't actually have an urgent need for these...
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I'm not so sure, especially with the ongoing deterioration in the strategic situation in the Indian Ocean and Pacific.
 
You are right on that point Cjc, India will find itself between a rock and a hard place if AMCA fails they should have stuck with the FGFA even though it was not stealthy enough compared to the AMCA but the FGFA would have been in service now.
 
Cjc said:
I dont know kaan has been moving so fast I think it could have a real shot for India even if the kf-21 is probably more likely. India is not getting the felon and its not getting the litning and frankly nothing India has done shows to me that amca is getting done this century.
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KAAN's first prototype wasn't supposed to fly(a GTU aircraft). It had gone through many modification to become flight-worthy. It made two short flights and it will, supposedly, make another one in the summer. But that airframe cannot be pushed more than that. The real prototypes(the first two) will come out in a couple of months and will be flown towards the end of this year. Then we'll see if the program advances as smoothly and as fast as KF-21 has.

So the first flight of KAAN should not give the false impression that KAAN is in advanced state in its development. It is still in the very early stages of the testing campaign.
 
Cjc said:
I dont know kaan has been moving so fast I think it could have a real shot for India even if the kf-21 is probably more likely.
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Turkey is major arms supplier to Pakistan (also political support), and there is religion in-between these two.
Not happening.
 
FighterJock said:
I am surprised that India has never thought about designing and building their own engine for the AMCA? Or would the process just be to expensive and time consuming to even be bothered about?
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I think they tought about it but to save time and money they opted for GE 414 series I presume...if not russian engine.

I figure engine is about as hard to make from scratch as in a new stealth aircraft.
 
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topspeed3 said:
I think they tought about it but to save time and money they opted for GE 414 series I presume...if not russian engine.

I figure engine is about as hard to make from scratch as in a new stealth aircraft.
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Maro.Kyo said:
Like I've said, they are going to build two different AMCA. Mk.1 will be powered by F414. Quite straight forward, since they have the license production scheme ready for the MWF Tejas.
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Maro.Kyo said:
As for the Mk.2, they are trying to develop a 110kN reheat thrust class turbofan with a foreign engine maker.
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Maro.Kyo said:
So it's either RR or Safran
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Wonder why not a F414 derivative, considering that GE already did homework for 12kn EPE variant.
 
This thing could be a great opportunity for AMCA. If the whole project is taken seriously.
 

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Didn't India already try and fail at making a domestic jet engine? With French help even.
 
Anduriel said:
Wonder why not a F414 derivative, considering that GE already did homework for 12kn EPE variant.
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Maro.Kyo said:
The Indian variant is designated F414-GE-INS6. Around 10 years ago, when GE was still promoting the F414 EPE and EDE, later F414 EE, to the USN and various other potential users of the F414 engine, India was rumored to have been the primary customer for the new type that would foot the bill for the development for the enhanced version of F414, but this never realized.
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Grey Havoc said:
I'm not so sure, especially with the ongoing deterioration in the strategic situation in the Indian Ocean and Pacific.
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I think that as an aspiring "independent" major power, India will seek to reap benefits from the China-US competition, but it will not truly bleed for the US strategy.Therefore, I believe that India has ample time and a favorable environment to develop its aviation industry, and it is not in a hurry.
 
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