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How the B-52 emerged (Boeing and contending designs to the B-52)

Antonio

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Lark,

I can email that scans to Skybolt if you want ;)
 

lark

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O.K. by me Sky.
Pometabla' haves the article.It's the fastest way if he mails
it to you and Devi.
Maybe you can give Pome' your homeaddress as well so
that we can send lager volumes of docu.in the future...
 

lark

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In "Boeing B-52 Stratofortresss" by William Holder & Robert Woodside
Aero Series No32 a Martin contender is mentioned in the second
generation longrange bomber competition.(B-52)
Is there someone who can provide more info about this design ?
 

Skybolt

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Lark, only thing known (relatively,..) of the Martin design is the model number: 236. AFAIK, Martrin pariticipated only to the first phase (1946) of the competion (Martin, Boeing and Convair). Convair proposed a swept wing B-36 (B-36G or H) with turboprops. Martin had just won the contest for the turboprop powered seaplane (later Tradewind) and probably build on that. But there are other intriguing possibilities: late-war to early-post-war history of Martin has a lot of unknown projects: Model 203, 175.000 lbs four-engine bomber, Model 209, four engine long range bomber, Model 214, six-engine long-range transport; Model 220 four-engine, two-jets patrol bomber, even a Model 216 (hold yourselves...) 500.000 lbs flying aircraft carrier....
To the second phase pariticipated Fairchild (the rail-launched flying wing...) and Republic (complete mistery) in addition to Rand, etc.
 

lark

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Sky,

Martin model 236 was a heavy bombardement aircraft for the
Army Air Corps , much to early for the B-52 competetion
I think .The 'Tradewind' was a Convair design.
Despite a lot is written about the B-52 it seems that not much attention is given to the very early design history...
 

Skybolt

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I know that Tradewind is a Convair! ;) What I meant is that Martin participated in the same competion (with Hughes too) won by Convairfor a turboprop-powered seaplane in late 1945. (actually not much is known of this design, it was the Model 230????). At times I get confused :-[
As for the 236, the list included in Martin Aircraft by Breihan/Piet and Mason says "Heavy Bomber USAF"... The Mercator, Model 219 is from 1944, the XB-48, Model 223, is from second half of 1944, and the XB-51, Model 234, is from early 1946 (the competion it entered was started in February that year) so the sequence timing would be right... No suitable later number is probable until Model-251, a four-jet high performance bomber, circa 1950.

As for the poor attention, I think the explanation is simple: all early designs were rejected and what followed was a most confused tale of changing specifications, "targeted" information diffusion, double talk, etc. If you read "B-52, a documentary history", you learn that Boeing proposal was the best and only got better.... Thruth was VERY different, and until January 1950 at the earliest, and January 1951 at the latest, Boeing wasn't a sure winner. And then there is the famous weekend in the hotel nad the balsa wood model etc......
 

lark

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The list from the Glenn L.Martin Aviation Museum speaks
from a cancelled Army Air Corps design - model 236- in the
time period 1948-1952.But again this not clear...


I have the two books you mentioned and I aggree that the
early concept history is confusing and few background info about
the contender designs,except for the YB-60, can be found.
The eventual proposal from Fairchild and Republic are not even mentioned in the several B-52 books...
 

Skybolt

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Fairchild and Republic (along with Rand and missile launchers) are mentioned in Bougherr's site. Lets hope in Scott's FOIAs... ;)
 

boxkite

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Hi Skybolt

source: russian magazin "Aviatsia i kosmonavtika", 1994 ,N.10

To mean:

Boeing Model B-464-67
Boeing Model B-450-?
Boeing Model B-450-?
Convair Model ? ( YB-60 )
Douglas Model D-1211J
Fairchild Model M-1??
Republic Model AP-?
RAND Model ?
plus several missile aircraft... ? Model ?, ? Model ?, ? Model ?...

There was a Fairchild Global Bomber Study designated M-172, sometime between 1949/50 (M-142) and 1954 (M-189). Could it be the missing link in the XB-52 competition? If not, does anybody know more about this study?
 

Skybolt

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M-172 looks intriguing... even if the B-52 wasn't intended as a Global Bomber... , i.e capable to reach every part of the world from the US and coming back (30000 KM range). Actually later it was capable of this, but with aerial refueling (in 1950 not a routine practice, expecially in combat). And, by the way, are you in passess of a Fairchild project list? :eek:
 

Skybolt

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Uh, yes, indeed, but "it's a long way to Tipperary", ;) and I have already my hands full with SIAI Marchetti, Macchi and now Breda archives.. So I dutifully leave the task to someone distant from the NASM less than, say, a couple of thousand miles.. Volounteers, anyone ;D
 

Skybolt

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But I would really glad to take a look here
BOX 139
Folder 4 Intercontinental High Speed Strategic-Type Airplanes brochure

Really no volounteers ??? :(
 

Orionblamblam

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Skybolt said:
Fairchild and Republic (along with Rand and missile launchers) are mentioned in Bougherr's site. Lets hope in Scott's FOIAs... ;)

I have a lead on the Fairchild design, not so much on the Republic. However, FOIA is underway, and *hopefully* there'll be results.
 

Skybolt

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Some useful info on early B-52 development history. Focuses principally on the Air Force - Boeing relation, with occasional incursions by Rand. Effectively stops in 1949, later years are cursory narrated. Useful but far from definitive... Plan views of B-52 design evolution and a cronology fairly detailed till 1949. Beware, 1.9 MB PDF.. http://aupress.au.af.mil/Books/Mandeles_B52/PDF/Mandeles.pdf
 

Skybolt

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Well, ladies and gentlemen, since "shazam" is copyrighted, I'll resort to my:
beebeedee, bobeedee, boo!

Just received from the Smithsonian (with much more), here is the 3view of the Fairchild M-121, which, born under the cover of the Generalized Bomber Research (which wasn't limiited to the Convair GeBo I and II studies) and designed in 1949, during 1950 was considered (alongside at least two Douglas design, the D-1211J and R) as a "dark horse" alternative to the XB-52 program. I don't know if it has already been published elsewhere, but I doubt it... Anyhow, enjoy...
 

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boxkite

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I don't like hats but I take my one's off to you, Skybolt :) . Excellent discovery! For me it looks like one of Wernher von Braun's first space ship proposals. Heavy metal on wings ... ;)

We want more 8) .
 

Skybolt

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Thanx...
Actually it could be the opposite. During 1949-50 NACA conducted a series of wind-tunnel tests on a configuration very similar to the M-121's one (only slimmer). Could be that Wernher while at Redstone saw them....
And since you want more, here is it... but I want to write an article on this (Air Enthusiast, any one?), so I'll be VERY parsimonious... Bu the forum is the forum, so.. from which you can see the famous railroad take-off concept and another big surprise: the auxiliary wing for very long range mission (it was full of fuel, more then doubling the total onboard). This is why someone had M-121 described as a "flying wing" perhaps....
 

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boxkite

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Yeah, AE would be the best choice for an article on that. Don't waste time, Skybolt ;) . We're keen on seeing the result.
 

Skybolt

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Ok, from tomorrow I'll be officially trying...
 

boxkite

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Is there a mailbox at KeyMags where we all can support you ;) ?
 

Skybolt

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Good topics never die...

A chart describing the three original proposals for the 1945 Hevy Bombardment Aircraft competition of 1945. As you can see, Martin's definitively was Model 236...
Source: "Development of the B-52. The Wright Field Story", by Lori S. Tagg, History Office Aeronautical Systems Center Air Force Materiel Command 2004
Extremely recommended (although not complete...)
 

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Skybolt

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And, BTW, I now think (almost sure) that there was no Republic competitor. It was a duplication of the Fairchild M-121. Someone read about the Fairchild's, thought it was a retroprojection of the late '80s Fairchild (i.e. mostly Republic) and re-translated it in Republic. So The only two "dark horses" were Douglas and Fairchild. RAND studies were more of the general concept types, and "missiles" were air-breathing cruise missiles.
 

Skybolt

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What, Model 464-35 ? 8) ;D
 

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Skybolt

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Uh, there is an alternative explanation for Republic being mentioned regarding the B-52 competition. Parallel to the Heavy Bombardment spec, SAC ran another for a long range photo-, electronic and weather reconnaissance type, named XR-16. In August 1947 the choice fell on the Republic XF-12, followed in the mid-term by a new aircraft. In 1948 the engines intended for the F-12 (the VDTs) were cancelled, so USAF considered the RB-49, only to cancel the requirement altogether in 1949 and choose a version of the heavy bombardment aircraft (this led to the RB-52).
 

nugo

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Hi my friend Skybolt!

On the drawing it is not visible specifications. If it is possible, these data show precisely.
 

hesham

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Hi,

The Boeing Model-464-350 and Model-464-49 were powered by
turboprop engines and may be involved in the competition.
 

GTX

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Lark, only thing known (relatively,..) of the Martin design is the model number: 236. AFAIK, Martrin pariticipated only to the first phase (1946) of the competion (Martin, Boeing and Convair). Convair proposed a swept wing B-36 (B-36G or H) with turboprops. Martin had just won the contest for the turboprop powered seaplane (later Tradewind) and probably build on that. But there are other intriguing possibilities: late-war to early-post-war history of Martin has a lot of unknown projects: Model 203, 175.000 lbs four-engine bomber, Model 209, four engine long range bomber, Model 214, six-engine long-range transport; Model 220 four-engine, two-jets patrol bomber, even a Model 216 (hold yourselves...) 500.000 lbs flying aircraft carrier....

Does anyone have a drawing of what Convair's proposed swept wing B-36 (B-36G or H) with turboprops would have looked like? Also, any idea what turboprop's were proposed - I'm thinking they may have been Allison T-40s as in the Convair R3Y Tradewind.

Regards,

Greg
 
J

joncarrfarrelly

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Hi Greg,
in 'Magnesium Overcast' by Jenkins he notes that the production version of the B-60 would have been a turboprop powered aircraft.
The 3-view shows four podded engines with contra-props.
Maybe its related?

Cheers, Jon
 

elmayerle

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GTX said:
Lark, only thing known (relatively,..) of the Martin design is the model number: 236. AFAIK, Martrin pariticipated only to the first phase (1946) of the competion (Martin, Boeing and Convair). Convair proposed a swept wing B-36 (B-36G or H) with turboprops. Martin had just won the contest for the turboprop powered seaplane (later Tradewind) and probably build on that. But there are other intriguing possibilities: late-war to early-post-war history of Martin has a lot of unknown projects: Model 203, 175.000 lbs four-engine bomber, Model 209, four engine long range bomber, Model 214, six-engine long-range transport; Model 220 four-engine, two-jets patrol bomber, even a Model 216 (hold yourselves...) 500.000 lbs flying aircraft carrier....

Does anyone have a drawing of what Convair's proposed swept wing B-36 (B-36G or H) with turboprops would have looked like? Also, any idea what turboprop's were proposed - I'm thinking they may have been Allison T-40s as in the Convair R3Y Tradewind.

I'd argue that the engines were either T40s, or the T54 developments thereof, or T57s (10,000 sh. turboprop derivative of the J57) as propsoed for the C-132.
 

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