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How the B-52 emerged (Boeing and contending designs to the B-52)

Skybolt

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Regarding the B-52 competion, only areas still in complete (AFAIK, and we hope in Scott's Bombers) darkness are:
1) Martin proposals
2) Fairchild (NOT Republic as in some recent converage in magazines!!!!) giant flying wing taking off from rail
 

elmayerle

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The English term is sweptback wing and the XB-60 was indeed the only flying competition the XB-52 had. Unfortunately for Convair, the thicker wing cross-section inherited from the B-36 did not allow the same performance as the all-new XB-52.
 

Skybolt

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Paradoxically, in the roles the B-52 have been used in the last 25 years or so (bomb trucks and stand-off weapons launchers) probably the YB-60 woul have been better suited... ;)
 

devi

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Hi Skybolt.

Yes, it not XB-52, but this drawing has been shown together with good figure XB-52
(Science et Vie).

There can be it there was one of projects of firm Boeing (on the basis of B-47 ?) or it was the project of other firm?

In what magazine this is shown "Fairchild giant flying wing taking off from rail"? (If it is possible, the name of magazine, year of release, number of magazine and pages ).

And if it is possible show us this Fairchild.
 

Orionblamblam

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devi said:
There can be it there was one of projects of firm Boeing (on the basis of B-47 ?) or it was the project of other firm?

Both are *very* unlikely:

1: I have dozens of design iterations leading from the B-29 up to the XB-52, and while there are some very odd outliers (flying wings, for example), this design is not among them, nor does it resemble any of them.

2: The design shown is very amateurishly drawn, and appears to be nothing more than someone sketching the XB-52 from memory.

I could be wrong, but that's the way it looks.
 

Antonio

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The design shown is very amateurishly drawn

I agree with Orion...to tell the truth it seems drawn by a child. I think this a fake. Devi can you the name of the source where you get this drawing?
 

Skybolt

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Devi said "Science et vie", a French science popularization magazine (still in existence)
Anyway, I'll tend to agree with Scott. Last, the Fairchild flying wing is mentioned in diffrent sources, most convenient Baugher history in his site: I add a quote here, from which you'll have additional surprises ... ;)
The Model 464-67 was looked upon favorably by SAC personnel, including General LeMay. On January 26, 1950, a conference was held at USAF Headquarters to consider once again the future of the B-52. Alternatives were considered once again, including new proposals from Douglas and Republic, Fairchild Aircraft Corporation's idea for a rail-launched flying wing, the swept-wing Convair YB-60, a Rand turboprop aircraft, two new designs based on the B-47, plus several missile aircraft. Although the meeting adjourned without reaching any firm decision, General LeMay still backed the B-52 as providing the best solution for SAC's strategic mission.

It would be extremely interestig to see the minute of that Ja. 26 1950 conference... FOIA any volunteer? :D

And the Martin original (1946) proposal was probably Model 236...
 

devi

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This is a Douglas Model D-1211J, one of competitor.
 

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Skybolt

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Devi, in case you didn't notice, you're making history! :eek:
Now: source??? ???
 

Skybolt

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And I suppose the Skyrays under the wings are for some FICON project...
 

devi

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Hi Skybolt

source: russian magazin "Aviatsia i kosmonavtika", 1994 ,N.10

To mean:

Boeing Model B-464-67
Boeing Model B-450-?
Boeing Model B-450-?
Convair Model ? ( YB-60 )
Douglas Model D-1211J
Fairchild Model M-1??
Republic Model AP-?
RAND Model ?
plus several missile aircraft... ? Model ?, ? Model ?, ? Model ?...
 

Skybolt

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As for the Boeing, in number 8 of International Air Power Review there is a nice description of the official Boeing submissions to B-52 competition. I think that the B-47 base models were in the series leading to XB-55.
For the rest, the search is on... ;)
 

lark

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The "XB-52" was shown in an article-Lettre d'Amerique- by L'Echo Des Ailes of 10 October 1950.

This article gave an overview of the American military aviation of that time and the drawing was based on rumours and the "bits" of information available....
 

Orionblamblam

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lark said:
the drawing was based on rumours and the "bits" of information available....

OK, that explains it. Given that it's based on second-hand verbal descriptions, it's not far off. The fuselage *screams* "B-47," when in fact no serious Boeing study for the B-52 used a B-47-like fuselage (although at least one B-47 study used a truncated B-52 fuselage... goofy looking sucker). However, someone outside might well have assumed that Boeing's follow-on to the B-47 would use B-47 design elements in the fuselage.
 

Skybolt

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Quote from: devi on September 13, 2006, 09:56:57 am
This is a Douglas Model D-1211J, one of competitor.

This is driving me buggo. I *know* I've seen that before

Scott, what do you think of the Douglas design? Expecially the -J suffix, could mean there was a very definite lineage of designs of the same type, but to which purpose?
 

Jemiba

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" I *know* I've seen that before... "

A 2-view (profile and upper side ) can be found in Vojenská Letadla 5, page 206,
although not in the same quality.
 

lark

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A two page article about the Douglas 1211-J was published in
Air Pictorial of February 1979.(page 60-61) under the title
"Little known U.S. bomber project may have influenced Russia's bear"
Peter J. Marson - Air Britain.

There should also be reference to this project in
Aviation Week for 29th January 1951.

Maybe Orionblam' have's something on this info...
 

Skybolt

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I'll look in Aviation Week, hoping that ussue is not missing from the library :mad:
 

devi

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Skybolt, If you can, look please magazine: Awiation Week, 1948, Vol.49, N.3, 19 July, page?,
competition of "XB-55".
 

Skybolt

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Ok, I'll try, but the 1948 year collection is VERY holed.... already discovered to my expense.
 

devi

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Hi Scott

In this ( http://www.up-ship.com/Book/bomproj.htm---B-52 ) drawing what projects are shown?

1) Boeing Model ?
2) Boeing Model ?
3) Boeing Model 461
4) Boeing Model 462
5) Boeing Model ?
6) Boeing Model ?
7) Boeing Model ?
8) Convair Model ?
9) Boeing Model ?
 

Skybolt

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Gentlemen and gentlemen (no ladies here? Sigh :( )
TAAAA DAAAAA ;D
 

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elmayerle

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That Douglas design sure resembles a bomber derivative of the wings, engines, and tail surfaces of the XC-132 - though the evolution may have been the other way.
 

Skybolt

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XC-132 - though the evolution may have been the other way.
Probably. The 1211-J had been officially presented a year before it appeared in the AV article, during the Jan 1950 Conference already mentioned. It must have been concieved during 1949, if not earlier. I don't know when the XC-132 project cycle began, but Ithink later than that. What is intriguing in the Douglas design is the suffix. I mean, the -J must be there for some purpose. I initially thought it stands for "Jet", to indicate an evolution from an earlier reciprocating engine version. But a "T" for turboprop would have been more suited. ??? Douglas was nonetheless serious about the proposal, they even devised a scheme to to a "all-Douglas-made" FICON, with Skyrays instead of F-84s...
 

devi

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Hi lark

If you can, please show us pages 60-61 from magazine " Air Pictorial ", February 1979, "Little known U.S. bomber project may have influenced Russia's bear".

I have mistake: I meant not "Aviacia & kosmonavtika", 1994, N 10, but Aviacia & kosmonavtika", 1995, N 10.
 

devi

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Hi Jemiba

If it is possible show us page 206 from the book Vojenská Letadla 5.
 

Skybolt

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Devi, if you have patience and I'll be lucky, I'll post the Air Pictorial article in a couple of weeks...
 

lark

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Devi , take a look in 'My Messages' for the Douglas bomber...
 

Skybolt

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Lark, could you send it to me too (not sure of being so lucky in a couple of weeks... ;D )
 

lark

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Sky'

Send me a pesonal note with your home address via 'my messages'
and I send you a high quality photocopy of the article.
(I have no scanner)

Regards..
 

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