How could the RAF have used the Hawker P1121?

[Archibald]

Digging further... the P.1121 best chance, in the 60's, is related to the following mix
- F-105/ Phantom capability
- except with a Medway or Spey turbofan, not unlike the Viggen
- larger than the Mirage F1 / no delta-wing like the Mirage III - larger and more powerful than these two
- no VG wing (with all the hassles we can only see with perfect hindsight)
- the gap between the F-5A / F-5E and the Phantom is too wide (far larger than F-15 / F-16 or Tomcat / Hornet)
- OTL the Mirage F1 got a "low end Phantom, anti- Mig-23" role in some countries, (think South Africa)

The P.1121 could fill a niche according to the above and sell in decent numbers. Notably to Arab states.

Some production numbers from the era

- Phantom: 5200
- F-5: 2200
- F-104: 2200
- Mirage III: 1400+
- Mirage F1: 700

Clearly, if the P.1121 can get some slices out of the Mirages, F-104 and Phantom OTL sales, then there is hope. F-5 was dirt cheap and as such, harder to target for a large aircraft like the P.1121. Also OTL Lightning (rares) clients like Saudi Arabia and UAE.

F-104 users
Belgium
Canada
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Italy
Japan
Jordan
Netherlands
Norway
Pakistan
Spain
Taiwan (Republic of China)
Turkey

F-5 Tiger
Austria
Bahrain
Botswana
Brazil
Canada
Chile
Ethiopia
Greece
Honduras
Indonesia
Iran
Jordan
Kenya
South Korea
Libya
Mexico
Morocco
Malaysia
Netherlands
Norway
Philippines
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
South Vietnam
Spain
Sudan
Switzerland
Taiwan (Republic of China)
Thailand
Tunisia
Turkey
Venezuela
Yemen

 

[zen]

Some of these were Hunter users.
Some did want something more than the F104, but there wasn't anything easy to go for.
Some grit their teeth and purchased F4.

But factor in that some Jaguar purchases would fall to the multirole P1131 variants.

India might be possible.....under a license I suspect.

 

[sferrin]

Within the force structure that was adopted, it has to be instead of the RAF Phantom order. If you get more imaginative and abandon VSTOL then it could also be a Hunter FGA9 replacement, obviously with appropriate avionics and weapons (for the "instead of Phantom" version this is a big deal). The idea of the UK acquiring P.1121 is actually not that absurd, it would just require the dumping of the Phantom, P.1154 or both and the resultant shift in capabilities that would entail.


And finally; Sandys, Sandys, Sandys, Sandys, Sandys, Sandys, Sandys...

If ever there were somebody more destructive than MacNamara. . .

 

[kaiserd]

Elephant in the room - ALOT of those US aircraft where bought (fully or partially) with US military aid. As was the case with the Hunter (including RAF ones) until the US changed the rules/ focus of such aid.
Means you are more in competition with the Mirage customers leaving the P.1121 looking even more a bit too large and expensive for many/ most potential clients.
And the Jaguar was a latter and better aircraft in the ground attack role.

 

[zen]

A number of Hunter users went over to Mirage III variants previously because there wasn't anything from the UK available bar the Lightning and that wasn't ideal for their needs.

 

[Archibald]

There might be two different P.1121s
- the big one, with Medway
- a smaller one with an Avon, eventually "enlarged" for the Spey

The difference is clearly, between a F-105 and a F-104. The second one having far better chances...

FMS, indeed. When did the rules changed ? I remember early 50's MAP funding Mystère IVs which obviously competed with F-86s, head on.

 

[Purpletrouble]

P1121 always strikes me as more of a “lost thing” than the over spec’d and niche TSR2.

I agree with JFCFuller, if one bins Phantom (but what for RN?) and VSTOL isn’t dived headfirst into, then it could viably have emerged as Hunter successor.

If say the deterrent wasn’t going to the RN but remaining with air launched, then P1121 perhaps offers a more “original TSR2” / merged fighter-bomber platform as the tier below.
What sits against it however of course is that the Air Ministry were very critical that Hawker’s were still just doing high performance platforms vice an integrated Weapons System as they wanted F155 and TSR2. Sadly both those requirements were grossly OTT so the underlying systems approach was lost too. Plus the absurd abandoning of fighters from ’57 took that half of the equation away.

I think that has a lot of truth to it, and to be fair, really was the Kingston/Dunsfold and then Farnborough mindset right to recent times - a massive focus on air vehicle (AV) performance and little in the way of systems other than what then goes in the AV. A massive contrast to Warton in my experience. Of course that AV expertise was first rate hence the privelidged position it got the UK on JSF.

 

[uk 75]

There was excellent article in Meccano Magazine April1967 with drawings of various Hawker designs including 1121 and 1154. Cant find it but will have a look online.
Despite the enthusiasm of the author it was apparent that the company seemed mainly interested in designing good looking aeroplanes rather than weapon systems.
They get lucky with Hawk because the RAF needed a homegrown Gnat replacement.

 

[Archibald]

They were also lucky Jaguar ballooned out of control, from supersonic trainer to baby TSR-2 (since every single project trying to replace the Canberra got chopped up, methodically).

 

[pathology_doc]

(since every single project trying to replace the Canberra got chopped up, methodically)

Started re-reading Damien Burke's "TSR2: Britain's Lost Bomber" last night, and what really shines through on a second reading after a VERY long interval is how the RAF and the Government really weren't honest with themselves, each other or with the manufacturers about what they really wanted out of the project. If they wanted something that was faster than the Canberra to do the same job, a two-seat P.1121 or derivative could have done it... but the bar kept on being raised in a way which should have been obvious to all concerned was going to kick prices through the roof and put some very good aircraft completely out of contention. For sure a two-seat P.1121 is never going to be anyone's F-15E, but airframe commonality from conversion trainer (which you are going to want) to strike variant (which you are going to find is nice to have) is going to save some costs at least.

It's not going to be anyone's Phantom either, at least until you give it SARH missiles and a radar to illuminate for them.

 

[Archibald]

(since every single project trying to replace the Canberra got chopped up, methodically)

Started re-reading Damien Burke's "TSR2: Britain's Lost Bomber" last night, and what really shines through on a second reading after a VERY long interval is how the RAF and the Government really weren't honest with themselves, each other or with the manufacturers about what they really wanted out of the project. If they wanted something that was faster than the Canberra to do the same job, a two-seat P.1121 or derivative could have done it... but the bar kept on being raised in a way which should have been obvious to all concerned was going to kick prices through the roof and put some very good aircraft completely out of contention. For sure a two-seat P.1121 is never going to be anyone's F-15E, but airframe commonality from conversion trainer (which you are going to want) to strike variant (which you are going to find is nice to have) is going to save some costs at least.

It's not going to be anyone's Phantom either, at least until you give it SARH missiles and a radar to illuminate for them.

So true ! The most infuriating aspect of the whole thing is the RAF stubborn refusal (from 1958) of anything even remotely looking like a Buccaneer - only to end with the RN Buccaneers (in 1968).

The only logical conclusion is "in your face RAF, you DESERVED that irony."
(complete and entire up to the 1991 Operation Granby, when those freakkin' Buccaneers at the end of their career had LGB target pods when the slaughtered Tornados had none. Oh geez...)

The TSR-2 + Concorde + CVA-01 + Blue Streak / Black Arrow 1961-1971 sequence is perfectly sickening. It is no surprise some are believing in deliberate sabotage, that is, some kind of conspiracy. Although I don't believe in it for a split second. Just like France 1940 collapse, sheer stupidity did the job even "better" than any conspiracy.

As I said many times before, when I started looking at these "british lost aerospace opportunities" on the Internet, back in 2006, I found a whopping 22 of them.
All the way from the supersonic Mile in 1948 to Nimrod AEW in 1983, it is 35 years of methodical blundering and butchering of the aerospace industry - until only rubble is left.

 

[uk 75]

TSR2 straddled as a Valiant and Canberra replacement. This was never admitted publicly but it is clear from the weapon loading.
Once the RAF got Hunter FGA9s it does not really need a replacement till 1968.
Kestrel/Harrier would never have happened without US funds. The RAF had decided by 1964 that it wanted F4s for this job.
Ironically the Vulcan B2 ended up replacing the SACEUR assigned Valiants until 1981.
From the taxpayer point of view a straightforward decision to do this in the first place might have been better.

 

[uk 75]

The Buccaneer S1 was the reason the RAF didnt look at the Buccaneer. The S2 doesnt arrive until TSR2 is nearly flying.
Most of the UK's failures were a hideous cocktail of over-ambition, shortage of funds, bureaucratic and industrial mismanagement and the ignorance of most of the politicians involved. It is a miracle that the forces got as much decent kit as they did.

 

[Archibald]

The Buccaneer S1 was the reason the RAF didnt look at the Buccaneer. The S2 doesnt arrive until TSR2 is nearly flying.
Most of the UK's failures were a hideous cocktail of over-ambition, shortage of funds, bureaucratic and industrial mismanagement and the ignorance of most of the politicians involved. It is a miracle that the forces got as much decent kit as they did.

And the Buccaneer with the correct, Spey engines was delayed because the Spey big father, the RB.141 Medway, went by the windows in the Trident quagmire - you know, the airliner that started the exact right size to kick the 727 arse, and then got shrunked by a politician at the worst moment and for the worst possible reasons (facepalm).

Oh, and this also send the Swedes (SAAB) away from RR and into Pratt arms - when Medway was lost, they turned toward JT-8D for the fledging Viggen.

Stupidity cascading into more and more stupidity...

Dear god...

I was just wondering, could the Medway have evolved into Concorde and TSR-2 massively powerful engines, in place of Olympus ?

 

[Hood]

The list of huge export buyers queuing up for P.1121s always seems rather far fetched to me for several reasons;

a) The current generation of P.1121 British competitors did not have long export queues. The Lightning secured two exports from oil rich nations in Britain's pocket (I don't say it was bribery per se) with a potential Indian sale scuppered due to politics. Hardly a glowing queue. The Saro P.177 had supposed interest from West Germany and Japan, how concrete we will never know - both soon took subsidised US aircraft but most importantly they could build them at home. Would Hawker had said to MBB and Mitsubishi "sure chaps take away the plans" while whistling off to the bank leaving Dunsfold sitting idle? I doubt it.
Sure the P.1121 looks less radical than the Lightning (has its missiles in a 'normal' location) and might be cheaper to operate but its capability doesn't really offer anything different. Other than Red Top its not doing much that a Hunter can do except fly supersonic and drink more fuel, so for smaller nations second-hand Hunters make more sense. We might lament them but they kept coming back for more. Maybe Hawker Siddeley should have just built a modernised Hunter instead?

b) the Jaguar has been mentioned here a fair bit, slightly later than P.1121 but tapping into a similar market. Yes it made sales but it didn't sell well beyond the usual informal British sphere (excepting Ecuador). I know some will point to Mr Dassault and his nefarious schemes but lets face it BAC had salesmen too you know...

c) as Kaiserd already mentioned, the USA could give F-5s away with cereal packets and had the money to subsidise sales. Once you take out MDAP and other defence aid funds from the F-4, F-104 and F-5 order books you aren't left with many buyers who stepped up to buy them for technical reasons alone. Never have quite understood the Swiss buying the F-5 though.

 

[uk 75]

The hidden Air Force | MiGFlug.com Blog

Switzerland is a weird country. A few examples? In the case of nuclear war, the Swiss have bunkers capable of fitting more than 100% of the country’s population – it is the only (paranoid enough) country to be capable of doing that. Swiss highways can be converted into runways by quickly...

migflug.com

Apart from its F18 pilots the Swiss use citizen pilots. They also like small rugged planes that can hide in mountains and use roads. Surprised they rejected Gripens. They have made good use of the F5

 

[uk 75]

1121 does rather symbolise the UK classic weakness. Our engineers come up with a bright idea and wonder why the people who never asked them for it dont rush to buy it.

 

[zen]

The list is one of possible buyers, it's ludicrous to suggest all of them. No one is suggesting all of them.

It was Heinkel who expressed interest in licensing Saro's P.177, it was always part of German interest in it.
Japan is clearly similar, licensing.

Hunter has no radar bar a gun ranging set. So it's not really in the same league as P1121, or F104, or F4 or even Mirage III.

Comparison for P1121 in Fighter variant is Lightning.
Comparison for P1121 in Strike-Fighter variant is Scimitar or Canberra.

There is no radar Red Top or any other radar guided AAM from the UK at this period because there is nothing to fire it from.

 

[Archibald]

the USA could give F-5s away with cereal packets

LMAO, and very well said, sir.

 

[Archibald]

b) the Jaguar has been mentioned here a fair bit, slightly later than P.1121 but tapping into a similar market. Yes it made sales but it didn't sell well beyond the usual informal British sphere (excepting Ecuador). I know some will point to Mr Dassault and his nefarious schemes but lets face it BAC had salesmen too you know...

With or without Dassault, main issue with the Jaguar was it was strike only. Few countries could afford the luxury of a separated fighter escort. A-7 did not sold well at all, either (and it was far more agile than Jaguard led sled, being a Crusader offspring).
The Soviets got a better idea and pulled a strike aircraft out of the MiG-23, selling the two in packages. Dassault essentially did the same for Mirage III & V and Iraqi F1s.
Had Breguet scored earlier than Br.121, aka Jaguar, things might have been different. But the company was no Dassault by any mean.
I like the concept of saving Breguet and one of the two British (either BAC or HSA) with a common fighter aircraft better than the Jaguar. Dassault would have blown an aneurysm. In fact they were lucky Breguet sunk rather than triumphed, landing one bad deal after another (NATO Taon: screwed. Jaguar: screwed. Atlantic: screwed again. Breguet 941: screwed by Douglas.)
They were France Northrop or Republic: once bright, but now in fast decline.
With Dassault having monopoly on combat aircraft and the public companies formally kicked out by the government, Breguet was the last hope of balancing the monopoly (the Armée de l'air protested circa 1965, but was promptly silenced by De Gaulle and Mesmer. curiously enough, Breguet won the ECAT competition at this exact moment... think it was a very clear Giant Middle Finger by the Armée de l'Air to Dassault and the Government. Alas, it didn't last long, since Dassault ate Breguet for lunch right from 1967.

I think the Jaguar show Breguet could have carved a niche into combat aircraft along Dassault if only as "the one that accept international cooperation rather than hating it". And there, the British might be welcome.

 

[uk 75]

Jaguar was P1154 without the VSTOL..It meets the squadron numbers of the P1154. Only a shame it couldnt have been designed and ordered in 1963

 

[zen]

Hmmmm....

A HSA Brough-Breuget tie up in the early 60's.......

There's a thought.

 

[Purpletrouble]

This all still misses the point about weapon systems vice just amazing looking and performing platforms.

Talk of significantly upgrading/rearming Vulcan in the 60s is daft, it was a 40s concept in origin, paralleling Sea Slug for instance.

The “stick TSR2 avionics in Vulcan” is almost depressing in it’s complete lack of appreciation of reality. These were generations apart in electrical systems and power generation - even on a more like for like basis we didnt do this with Buccaneer, and the RAE examples of that used for MRCA/Tornado development could only take bits of the system. Look at Jaguar 97, all that Tornado GR4 and Harrier GR7 stuff on the shelf and none of it used - the reason is in the detail of platform architecture.

I strongly suspect anyone suggesting “just add this platform’s bits to that platform” has never done anything more complex with those platforms than build airfix models of them!

 

[Archibald]

This all still misses the point about weapon systems vice just amazing looking and performing platforms.

Talk of significantly upgrading/rearming Vulcan in the 60s is daft, it was a 40s concept in origin, paralleling Sea Slug for instance.

The “stick TSR2 avionics in Vulcan” is almost depressing in it’s complete lack of appreciation of reality. These were generations apart in electrical systems and power generation - even on a more like for like basis we didnt do this with Buccaneer, and the RAE examples of that used for MRCA/Tornado development could only take bits of the system. Look at Jaguar 97, all that Tornado GR4 and Harrier GR7 stuff on the shelf and none of it used - the reason is in the detail of platform architecture.

I strongly suspect anyone suggesting “just add this platform’s bits to that platform” has never done anything more complex with those platforms than build airfix models of them!

There no need to be a jerk, for a start.

Secondly -

“stick TSR2 avionics in Vulcan”

B-52H - last airframe October 26, 1962 - and still up to date. Up to 2050.

 

[Purpletrouble]

So they’ve put B58/1/2 avionics in the B52 have they...

 

[zen]

It's entirely possible to fit different systems into an airframe, though not always easy to retrofit them.
Sometimes it's simpler to fit them to new build of the same type that had modifications to accommodate such new systems.

Frankly the Victor makes a better B52 parallel. Though the VC10 is more obvious in production solution by this time.

But for TSR.2 systems, this really needed the low level stressed Valiant variant. Of which only one flew.

 

[Hood]

The list is one of possible buyers, it's ludicrous to suggest all of them. No one is suggesting all of them.

It was Heinkel who expressed interest in licensing Saro's P.177, it was always part of German interest in it.
Japan is clearly similar, licensing.

Hunter has no radar bar a gun ranging set. So it's not really in the same league as P1121, or F104, or F4 or even Mirage III.

Comparison for P1121 in Fighter variant is Lightning.
Comparison for P1121 in Strike-Fighter variant is Scimitar or Canberra.

There is no radar Red Top or any other radar guided AAM from the UK at this period because there is nothing to fire it from.

That is true, regarding the interest in the P.177 but it must be added that Saro was not a mass producer of aircraft and other developements in rocketry and hovercraft to keep it occupied, so selling production licences made more sense. Hawker was geared to build fighters and had few other interests to sustain its workforce, so less incentive.

I know that you are not adovocating all those nations would buy 1121s, but its sometimes too easy to look at the US sales with jealousy. India would have been a definite possibility for orders.

Canberra offers more payload for bombs but I would agree that for strike the 1121 would be superior moving into the 1960s, less vulnerable and better avionics, though more leaning towards tactical support rather than striking strategic targets - maybe not quite an F-4 in terms of carrying capacity. Certainly a match for other fighters though in this regard.

 

[uk 75]

I am not sure whether it was daft but the RAF ended up using 48 Vulcan B2s to deliver WE177s until 1982 instead of the 1950s technology TSR2s that were supposed to replace the Valiants and Canberras. It also uses 2 squadrons of Buccaneers in Germany to do the job originally planned for 2 sqns of P1154s (toting US supplied nukes).

 

[uk 75]

1121 like TSR2 and P1154 are eye catchingly beautiful. As Purpletrouble suggests, the F4 Phantom was the much better answer to the question of giving the RAF something better than Canberras and Hunters after 1968. If we had done what the W Germans did and take off the shelf F4s they would have been even better

 

[Hood]

This all still misses the point about weapon systems vice just amazing looking and performing platforms.

Talk of significantly upgrading/rearming Vulcan in the 60s is daft, it was a 40s concept in origin, paralleling Sea Slug for instance.

The “stick TSR2 avionics in Vulcan” is almost depressing in it’s complete lack of appreciation of reality.

Erm, not sure how this is relevant here as that discussion was on another thread about post-Nassau scenarios and nothing to do with P.1121!

Hawker was slow to embrace the weapon system concept but it was still new at this time and it could be argued that even Dassault at this time were not thinking in those terms. That is not to say though that its principles could not have been applied if development had moved on further.

 

[zen]

I think that India was possible for deal.

There are a number of Starfighter users that might....just might not have fallen to Lockheed if Hawkers had the product.

And a number that might.....having been users of the Hunter or earlier British aircraft...that might have opted for the P1121, instead of the Mirage III iterations.

In summary there is a reasonable scope for moderate success if the P1121 was any good.

 

[uk 75]

If the P1121 had evolved like the P1 Lightning to meet clear RAF requirements it could have replaced Javelins in Fighter Command and Canberras/Hunters overseas. This was what F4 did.
Perhaps if it had been a Vickers or English Electric product. I think politcians in UK disliked Camm and Page for blocking reorganisation of UK aerospace. A Marcel Dassault was not wanted in the UK.

 

[zen]

If the P1121 had evolved like the P1 Lightning to meet clear RAF requirements it could have replaced Javelins in Fighter Command and Canberras/Hunters overseas. This was what F4 did.
Perhaps if it had been a Vickers or English Electric product. I think politcians in UK disliked Camm and Page for blocking reorganisation of UK aerospace. A Marcel Dassault was not wanted in the UK.

I would agree with that.
I suspect it went both ways too....

It's a shame Avro didn't have a product. Their OR.339 offering was rather good.

If...well Vickers Supermarine did have a pretty good answer and it clearly had potential.
That being the Type 571.
High mounted blown wing.
Single large engine....Medway turbofan.
Internal fuel for well over 600nm
Wingtip tanks to achieve 1,000nm
Internal bay for Red Beard TMB.
Only quibble is the small nose and forward radar.....
Simple to build multiple variants.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

It's not going to be anyone's Phantom either, at least until you give it SARH missiles and a radar to illuminate for them.

The Phantom first flew as the X/YF4-H1/F4A without radar or primitive radar. The game changing AN/APQ120 was introduced in the F4B. I guess there was nothing comparable coming out of U.K. industry but the P1121 could have installed this radar, after all several versions of Javelin used American radars.

 

[Archibald]

I strongly suspect anyone suggesting “just add this platform’s bits to that platform” has never done anything more complex with those platforms than build airfix models of them!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Warning on tone in this topic especially to Purpletrouble and Archibald. There is no need to be nasty, nor should you react in the same fashion to other's nastiness.

Play nicely or you'll end up on the naughty step.

 

[Purpletrouble]

It's not going to be anyone's Phantom either, at least until you give it SARH missiles and a radar to illuminate for them.

The Phantom first flew as the X/YF4-H1/F4A without radar or primitive radar. The game changing AN/APQ120 was introduced in the F4B. I guess there was nothing comparable coming out of U.K. industry but the P1121 could have installed this radar, after all several versions of Javelin used American radars.

Which makes the point that these products (P1121 especially) weren’t a complete weapons system. TSR2 was as a lesson of the 50s was that focussing on high performance aircraft and avionics separately wasn’t giving effective results given the time to then achieve that.

When you read about TSR2 what stands out to me is the attention given to the complete system, the R&D for the avionics was huge. I’m certainly not going to defend or insulate RAF/MoD/Politicians in this period but industry was no better. As I said before, the Hawker heritage of platform vs a complete system was ingrained and continued to recently. Lookijg at P1121, which of course was a fluidish concept with multiple alternatives, it feels as if “here is an awesome plane, lets find a role / add whatever equipment” approach, the obverse of what was needed in terms of a sensible requirement and a holistic solution - and this seems to have been a major issue at the time too. Of course the requirements were all over the place as a result of trying to combine tactical and strategic strike and the “no more fighters” that took nearly 30years to be completely reversed with the start of what became ACA/EFA etc.

 

[zen]

One of the things that seems to come out of reading BSP is that Brough office a.k.a Blackburn seems to get the Weapon Systems concept.
But being Brough and not Kingston and being part of HSA yet clearly viewed as less important than Hawkers they could produce study after study but get no traction.

One might surmise that those with recent experience of complex weapons system integration gained that appreciation. Such as Blackburn with the Buccaneer, and Supermarine after all the hard lessons of Swift and Scimitar. Fairey with Delta I and II and Fireflash, DH after the Sea Vixen and Firestreak.

While Hawkers had the Hunter......
Yet Hawkers had the lead.
And Vickers seems bogged down in the components too much.

 

[Purpletrouble]

I am not sure whether it was daft but the RAF ended up using 48 Vulcan B2s to deliver WE177s until 1982 instead of the 1950s technology TSR2s that were supposed to replace the Valiants and Canberras. It also uses 2 squadrons of Buccaneers in Germany to do the job originally planned for 2 sqns of P1154s (toting US supplied nukes).

Those Vulcans were unchanged however, as were the Buccaneers. The outcome was a result of the chaos and mess from the late 50s through 60s. That seems fairly daft when we know we had the ability to have put something much better in place much earlier. On one thread there is a comment, possibly by yourself (?) that in a hot NATO war RN surface ships would have had effectively busy and short existences. I suspect they’d have lasted longer than those Vulcans and Buccs!

Ultimately, I do love the P1121 for its potential as a machine but that is all it was, and I think a lot of the criticism at the time was valid.

Perhaps this takes it off topic, but what would need to happen, probably in lieu of Sandys/‘57, for the UK to enter the 60s with acheivable/realistic requirements and an industry able to deliver?
- TSR2 minus
- New Manned Fighter(Bomber) in lieu F155 and supplant Lightning?
- Less VSTOL obsession in response to threat to airfields (a weird one really, even by 1991 it was still hard to put an airfield out of commission despite decades and specialised kit to do it - arguably theass arrival of PGMs from then on does give that?)

 

[Purpletrouble]

One of the things that seems to come out of reading BSP is that Brough office a.k.a Blackburn seems to get the Weapon Systems concept.
But being Brough and not Kingston and being part of HSA yet clearly viewed as less important than Hawkers they could produce study after study but get no traction.

One might surmise that those with recent experience of complex weapons system integration gained that appreciation. Such as Blackburn with the Buccaneer, and Supermarine after all the hard lessons of Swift and Scimitar. Fairey with Delta I and II and Fireflash, DH after the Sea Vixen and Firestreak.

While Hawkers had the Hunter......
Yet Hawkers had the lead.
And Vickers seems bogged down in the components too much.

Agreed, perhaps epitomising the phrase “beware success”, as failure/difficulty leads to a lot of learning and usually the impetus to get rid of culture/specific people. Hawkers with P1121, it seems like just a much more capable Hunter in a way.

Of course they then go VSTOL/1127/1154/Harrier which again is this incredible air vehicle but with not much more and took a long time to get systems equal to that of contemporary conventional aircraft. Even then it wasn’t an integrated/polished system and right to the end Harrier was a collection of stuff. Contrast that to the architecture of TSR2 / MRCA / EFA (even Jag) and the difference is stark. As I said though, that AV expertise was second to none.