High Speed Seaplane Designs

[hesham]

Hi,

Mr. Carter suggested air-cooled engines for high speed seaplane project.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929 - 1340.html

 

[Jemiba]

Is it just coincidence, that this design seems to be remarkable similar to
the Dornier proposal for the Schneider Trophy, we discussed in the Dornier
racer thread some days ago ? ???

 

[robunos]

reading the 'flight' article in more detail, it all becomes clear now...

"Mr Carter" is in fact W.G. 'george' Carter, chief designer of the Gloster aircraft company.

the flying boat shown is a hypothetical design powered by two bristol mercury air-cooled radials, for comparison with the 'Dornier' flying boat shown here,

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4969.msg39498.html#msg39498

powered by two water-cooled 'W' engines, probably napier lions.

it should be also be remembered that george carter also designed the Short-Bristow Crusader schneider trophy racer, also powered by a mercury radial, and who's lobate wing planform is also echoed in the hypothetical flying boat illustrated here.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[hesham]

Good info Robunos,

and a high speed flying boat of 1930.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1930/untitled0%20-%201126.html

 

[robunos]

and a high speed flying boat of 1930.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1930/untitled0%20-%201126.html

this is a development of the design posted in the dornier racer thread, using sponsons instead of wing floats, designed again by george carter. this time the engine type is quoted explicitly, as napier lion VIIDs.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Gannet]

george carter also designed the Short-Bristow Crusader schneider trophy racer, also powered by a mercury radial, and who's lobate wing planform is also echoed in the hypothetical flying boat illustrated here.

Lobate wing planform I checked the internet, NASA/NACA Technical Report Service and Flight and cannot find anything discuss the reasons and/or benefits of lobate wing planform. Even in the articles that shows this wing planform there is no discussion on it.

Can anyone please provide enlightment for me

 

[robunos]

...reasons and/or benefits of lobate wing planform.

this, from Putnam's 'Gloster Aircraft' pp 185-6, describing the gloster VI schneider racer, also designed by george carter, and using a very similar lobate wing form:-

"wing thickness was increased on the outer portions to improve lateral control at low speeds, because the thinner inboard portion of the wing began to lose lift before the outer part. maximum chord also occurred at the point of maximum thickness, and the whole design was aimed at combining the advantages of the low drag thin wing with the thick wing's higher lift."

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Gannet]

...reasons and/or benefits of lobate wing planform.

this, from Putnam's 'Gloster Aircraft' pp 185-6, describing the gloster VI schneider racer, also designed by george carter, and using a very similar lobate wing form:-

"wing thickness was increased on the outer portions to improve lateral control at low speeds, because the thinner inboard portion of the wing began to lose lift before the outer part. maximum chord also occurred at the point of maximum thickness, and the whole design was aimed at combining the advantages of the low drag thin wing with the thick wing's higher lift."

cheers,
Robin.

Thanks Robin, I have been searching all mine books also, and have not found anything on it yet.

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

and a high speed flying boat of 1930.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1930/untitled0%20-%201126.html

this is a development of the design posted in the dornier racer thread, using sponsons instead of wing floats, designed again by george carter. this time the engine type is quoted explicitly, as napier lion VIIDs.

cheers,
Robin.

Here is a model built from the Flight 3-view.

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2008/june/aviation/speedboat.php

Jon

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Jon,

and a flying boats.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1931/1931%20-%200466.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1931/1931%20-%200467.html

 

[Antonio]

Hesham,

that drawings from your latest post do not seem high-speed seaplane designs. Please try to be coherent with the topic

regards,
Antonio

 

[Jemiba]

Two Saro designs intended as contenders for the Schneider trophy.
From 1926 the design with patent n° 262579 with twin floats, that
could have been retracted to form a single float in flight.
The other design with patent n° 2965594 from 1927 should use a
conventional single float and auxiliary wingtip floats.
(from Tagg/Wheeler "From Sea To Air")

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Mr. Carter suggested air-cooled engines for high speed seaplane project.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929%20-%201340.html

Hi,


anther article for Mr. Carter,high speed seaplane project.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65546626/f13.image

 

[RAP]

Nice article from AW.

 

[Schneiderman]

John Kean was closely associated with Lt Al Williams' unsuccessful Mercury racer built to compete in the 1929 Schneider Trophy contest. Williams' blamed him and the Navy factory for the failure.

 

[hesham]

Yes my dear Jemiba,

and in Flightglobal site,the aircraft had two propellers;

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929%20-%200409.html

Anther drawing.

 

[Schneiderman]

Hesham, as in your previous post this is not a Dornier concept/project. It was a speculative concept by George Carter, freelance designer who joined Gloster in the ealy 1930s.

 

[SatinWings]

for those interested, the Saro aircraft patents were GB262579 (A) (contracting twin-pontoon design) and GB296594 (A) (single pontoon with wingtip-mounted floats design). Here are the two documents scanned, found through Espacenet once I tracked down the proper publication numbers through Google Patents, and some cropped images of the original publication. Interesting to note that GB296594 (A) has two distinct versions, one not represented in the previously posted reproduced three-view.

 

[riggerrob]

Yes!
Lobate platform was an early attempt at taming stall characteristics. They wanted to maintain aileron (roll) contol even after the wing root stalled.
Left to their own devices, tapered wings tend to stall at the shortest chord first because the short chord produces low Reynolds number equaling less lift and greater suceptability to surface roughness.
Some designers twist tapered wings while others install slots or slats to maintain aileron control into the stall.
Also consider streamline. A shorter root chord makes less turbulence (ala. Luscombe 8). Also remember that these Schneider racers were built before they perfected fancy curved wing root fairings (ala. Spitfire).

 

[PMN1]

Thank you my dear Jon,

and a flying boats.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1931/1931%20-%200466.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1931/1931%20-%200467.html

Does the first design have accommodation in the pylon and wing?

Which company was the design from, Blackburn?

 

[Schneiderman]

No to your fist question but there is a second cockpit on top of the pylon.
Yes to your second question

 

[PMN1]

No to your fist question but there is a second cockpit on top of the pylon.

Why?

 

[Schneiderman]

Why?

Hang on I'll ask John Rennie..............."The pilot's control bridge is arranged centrally above, and just forward of, the wing, thus providing a unique view ahead and on the port and starboard bows"

 

[PMN1]

Why?

Hang on I'll ask John Rennie..............."The pilot's control bridge is arranged centrally above, and just forward of, the wing, thus providing a unique view ahead and on the port and starboard bows"

Manned all the time or just for take off and landing?

 

[Schneiderman]

What you read is what Rennie said, no more, no less.