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Hawker Siddeley P1179

hesham

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Hi,

the Hawker HS.1179A was V/STOL aircraft and was developed from
Harrier in 1968.
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1989/1989%20-%203336.html?search=Hamilton%20aircraft%20PROJECT
 

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LowObservable

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Looks like someone left the garden gate open and an F-4 mated with an HS.1154...
 

Nick Sumner

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In Tony Butler's BSP Jet Bombers since 1949 on pp 140 he gives us pictures of project P1179L and P1179M. The text indicates that more than 20 projects were schemed under the P1179 number, below is P1179J which I found in the 'Wallpaper Books' at Brooklands

Does anyone have any images of any of the other 17 projects?

Does anyone have any specs on any of the other 17 projects?

Thanks!

 

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harrier

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Here's the 'vanilla' P1179, with reheated Speys and 'armpit' cold nozzles used in jet borne flight only, when fan flow was to be ducted to them along with a 'clang box/deflector' arrangement for the core flow.

Also the -G variant with RB.199s with PCB front nozzles (used all the time) and reheated core flow and a similar 'clang box/deflector' again, similar to your 'J'.

Anyone familiar with vectored thrust or Kingston would know there was a large element of 'going through the motions' with the P.1179 studies, to see if other powerplant concepts offered advantages over PCB Pegasus. Ultimately the simplicity of the latter won out (L and M variants), and I think Ralph Hooper went through the motions at the behest of others.

I doubt too much work was done on the variants up to and after L/M - certainly not much more than a GA and basic weight/performance/characteristics estimates.

BTW, it is best not to post pics with 'SECRET' on them online. Although past the 30 year mark, technically each page is secret until stamped 'declassified'! A quick crop before Special Branch come knocking!
 

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Nick Sumner

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Gonna show my ignorance here - what's a 'clang box'?
 

harrier

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It was the Kingston term for a Rolls-Royce thrust deflector which used a similar arrangement to their thrust reversers on the civil Conway/Medway/Spey etc. - a pair of internal clamshell doors, which uncovered the rotatable deflector aperture(s) for vertical flight. See http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/galleries/images/5634/500x400/rolls-royce-conway-cutaway.jpg for the clamshell arrangement and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Medway for the deflector

The name 'clang box' came from the noise the Kingston designers assumed it would make, according to Roy Braybrook. I don't think RR ever used the term!
 

Nick Sumner

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So, if I were going to go looking for more information about the various P1179 projects where would be a good place for me to look?
 

overscan

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Chris Ferrara at Brooklands has compiled a collection of 3 views in a binder, may have some more variants. He is trying to get at least one drawing for every Hawker model number.

There may be a brochure or two for HS.1179 floating around, but the variants won't be described in a brochure - only the final version. In many cases a drawing might be as much work as was done.
 

Nick Sumner

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Thanks Overscan. I met Chris Ferrara in November - nice bloke - I will contact him again next time I'm UK bound.
 

harrier

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Nick Sumner said:
So, if I were going to go looking for more information about the various P1179 projects where would be a good place for me to look?
Look in your PM inbox!
 

andy_d

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In "Project Cancelled" (I've only got the first edition), there are pictures of the P1150, which looks like a slightly slicker Harrier/P1127 with a thin wing and plenum chamber burning, said to be capable of Mach 1.3. Is that an earlier stage in the process that led to the P1179?
 

overscan

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Not directly, P.1179 was a bit later. P.1150 led to P.1154, which was cancelled in 1965. P.1179 was a clean sheet design in 1968 aimed at the MRCA requirement. Hawker were building the McDonnell-Douglas F-4K under license at the time, which might account for a little F-4 flavour.
 

JFC Fuller

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Hawker were building the McDonnell-Douglas F-4K under license at the time, which might account for a little F-4 flavour.
It actually reminded me of the Jaguar.
 

starviking

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Not directly, P.1179 was a bit later. P.1150 led to P.1154, which was cancelled in 1965. P.1179 was a clean sheet design in 1968 aimed at the MRCA requirement. Hawker were building the McDonnell-Douglas F-4K under license at the time, which might account for a little F-4 flavour.

I thought it was only BAC and Shorts building parts of the Phantom.
 

alertken

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SV/PaulMM: F-4K/M. You are both right: Short outer wing, BAC aft fuselage/tail/inboard wing leading edge; HSAL/Brough was appointed Sister Firm (a UK concept to secure In Service Support priced in £).
 

uk 75

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I have tried looking in the Flight Archive without success but I have somewhere at home a neat drawing from about 1968 of the proposed MRCA which looked like a Phantom at the front with Jaguar style intakes and tail and swing wings. It was probably by a Flight artist as it bore no resemblance to the actual plane or anything planned.
I loved this picture at school and was always drawing crude side views of 1154s TSR2s etc and then this sort of hybrid. Happy Days! I was very pleased to find the 1179 illustration in a book years later.
 

andy_d

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The Flight picture isn't TOO far out! But the text now seems wildly optimistic, both in predicting that the aircraft would enter service in 1975, and that the thrust-to-weight ratio would be "close to unity" like the F-15...

Why would Hawker Siddeley propose a V/STOL aircraft to the MRCA requirement? Surely the penalties imposed by VTOL would mean that it had no chance of meeting the other parameters.
 

hesham

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andy_d said:
Why would Hawker Siddeley propose a V/STOL aircraft to the MRCA requirement? Surely the penalties imposed by VTOL would mean that it had no chance of meeting the other parameters.

Hi Andy,


I think Hawker Siddeley wanted to produce many versions with various options.
 

starviking

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alertken said:
SV/PaulMM: F-4K/M. You are both right: Short outer wing, BAC aft fuselage/tail/inboard wing leading edge; HSAL/Brough was appointed Sister Firm (a UK concept to secure In Service Support priced in £).

As always, thanks alertken. I take it that sister firm is different in concept from the usual definition, i.e. Hawkers and Avro being sister firms?
 

alertken

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Yes. Daughter firm has also been used: regard as licencee, or foster Design Authority. Marshall's does the job on C-130J. Today's in-speak is operational sovereignty - see criticism of F-35B-for-UK, access to source code. What HSAL/Brough/Holme did on F-4K/M was hold the Design Record, so UK could invent Repair Schemes, Modifications, Operations procedures that we chose, meeting our practices and needs, all worked on in £, under our control, to our priorities. Sisters might (or might not) fabricate spare parts.
 

Graham1973

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Sorry to relaunch this thread for what is going to be fairly meager information, but I was going through an old kids book of mine ("Exciting Stories of fantasy and the future"), it's a 'Boys Own' type anthology published in 1982 and one of the stories called "Killing Chance" (Author: Kelvin Gosnell) is built around a fictional supersonic VTOL fighter called the Merlin. The few details the author gives suggest that he based the Merlin on the P1179. His version has twin-RR Spey engines with four vectoring nozzles, everything else is rather vaguely described and the artist used based his illustration of the plane rather too closely on the Harrier. The story does leave one issue open, it is mentioned that the plane has Aden cannon, but it never makes it clear if the weapons are integral to the plane or as on the Harrier mounted in weapons pods.

Can anyone answer what weapons fit was planned/suggested for the P1179?
 

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blackkite

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These Hawker VTOL fighters are very hard to identify. Many designs existed. Many many missing links.........
It's worth to make a book.
 
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blackkite

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Hi!
 

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overscan

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Blackkite:

1) CITE YOUR SOURCES! Link, or name, I don't mind either way.

2) Don't keep posting large numbers of full size images in the posts. Lots of people still have crappy internet, its not nice for them to be confronted with a wall of pics. I've edited a number of posts in the last day or two.
 

blackkite

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Terribly sorry about this. I understand.
 

CJGibson

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RAF P.1154 variant had wingtip outriggers. Could be the Joint Service version.

Chris
 
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