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MrT

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Just wondered why this amazing aircraft doesn't enjoy such a reputation as compared to TSR2?

Thinking back to the sixties would it not have made sense to take up the Yorkshire suggestion rather than one from a neighbouring county? After all a supersonic Bucc would have saved developmental costs. PLUS it would possibly mean no need to spend dollars on getting Phantom as it could have done that job too. On top of that there is also AEW and more besides. After all p139 is essentially a fat (very fat) Buccaneer love child?any thoughts? Imagine we could have feasibly seen an aircraft carrier with a full load of Buccaneeresque aircraft, something that the F18 is only just now managing to rival.

So could we have a Buccaneer thread? Eg anyone got the answer to whether the SAAF did place a supplementary order for 18 or is it myth?
 
MrT said:
So could we have a Buccaneer thread?
Click to expand...


Of course... but not in the "projects" section. I'm moving this topic to the Aerospace board.
 
Re: Bucanneer

Sverdlovsk. Fearsome. So an RN Requirement was accepted in 1953 for a low level strike type to kill it. Award to Brough was because AWA's bid was seen as inferior. No Big Boy enthused because only Eagle was, in 1954, in Service, Ark onway (2/55), Victorious on a very protracted refit and Hermes in very slow build. Minuscule production volume for firms awash with/creaking under Korean-War-funded land types. So, be grateful NA.39 existed, and that Sandys chose to buy (20 Development Batch, plus) 50 (became 40) in 1957. With an orphan engine. Modest performance on that engine permitted RAF to carry the case that (to be TSR.2) could not be Joint with NA.39. Brough bid to RAF with B.108, but were deemed out-of-their-depth to attempt that+NA.39. HSAL bought Brough, 1/60.

So, 1961. Ark/Eagle/Victorious/Hermes. RN dreaming of (to be CVA.01/02/03). Decent production prospect, so Ministers buy a proper engine and initiate S.2. Move now to TSR.2 deletion, 4/65. HSAL starts a flurry, into 1970, of 2*, 2** schemes to fit elements of TSR.2 Weapon System, even including origami schemes to dash faster. Why? Wherefore supersonic? No tactical strike type needs it: Phantoms, Voodoos et al were transonic in the weeds, laden: range and load, please, not brief dash speed. Low, very low is salvation, not eyeball-bouncing gusts. So, despite HSAL trying very hard to yield payoff from their Yorkshire investment, no takers for starry updates. Why?

European Collaboration. Specifically: how to get UK in to (then EEC: UK re-applied, 10/5/67), how to keep France in NATO (they half-exited, 1/7/66), how to keep W.Germany on-UK-side (v.CDG) and paying heftily towards RAFG/BAOR? The sequence AFVG, Jaguar, (mark-time, tread-water UKVG), (to be) Tornado were wanted despite the high factor of their Spec. that could be/was met by Buccs: indeed they were wanted almost because of the techno-challenge of a touch of incremental capability - estimable, noble work for Euro-partners. We did collaborative GW, space and A300 (for awhile) all in parallel, same purpose.

When Minister Healey did succeed in Feasibility Study, 6 Nations, (to be) Tornado, 7/68, he did buy 28 S.2(RAF). But if he had bought them with ***enhancements he would have diverted Elliott, Ferranti, RR et al from/impugned his commitment to (to be) Tornado. S.2(RAF) must be seen as a mere gap-filler, displacing Canberra asap, awaiting the ultimate type.
 
MrT said:
Eg anyone got the answer to whether the SAAF did place a supplementary order for 18 or is it myth?
Click to expand...

Are we talking about the time of the original order?
I was under the impression it was for another 16 aircraft, to equip another squadron?
Aircraft of the South African Airforce by Herman Potgieter & Willem Steenkamp published in 1981 says this in their Buccaneer chapter:

"But a sword of Damocles hung over the newly reborn squadron.
In 1964 the
Labour Perty had come to power in Britain, and the new Prime Minister, Harold
Wilson, was determined to enforce the optional United Nations arms embargo
against South Africa. Wilson believed the Buccaneers might be used to suppress
internal insurgency - somewhat illogical reasoning since there were many SAAF
aircraft better suited to counter-insurgency roles than the
Buccaneer.
Nevertheless, it was apparent that No24 Squadrons new aircraft
were threatened. In 1964 India's Minister of Defence arrived in Britain to buy
maritime weaponry, and it was reported (though never confirmed) that Wilson was
seriously considering diverting the as yet undelivered SAAF Buccaneers to that
country.
Following severe pressure from the Republic however, Britain
eventually agreed to let South Africa have its Buccaneers, but summarily
cancelled an option the Republic had taken on an undisclosed number of
others."
Click to expand...



The last sentence implies that the option was taken up, but cancelled by Wilson.
This makes sense, as one of the first Buccaneers on its delivery flight (Nov 3rd 1965) had a double flame out between the Cape Verde Islands and Ascension Island, and crashed. A query to at least replace this aircraft was ignored.
Also, there was hard interest in 8 Victor bombers, initially B.1's, but then B.2's , but the SAAF quietly withdrew any interest in those when Labour got in.
 
Aha that makes sense! Many thanks for that, it would totally explain that situation.
 
As usual AlertKen sums it up brilliantly.

The spec for the TSR2 made no sense, other than the Air Staff were mesmerised by supersonic. Subsonic = old hat, obsolete, past it. But who needs to be supersonic at 200 feet. And what was the point of the high level supersonic dash?

The Buccaneer could do all that was required of TSR2, Jaguar or Tornado in the ground attack role.
 
Ran out of room to put in the 'Naval Staff Requirement NA.39' tag. I also didn't think in time of putting in or adding 'Project B-103', 'M.148T', 'BNA', 'Blackburn Naval Aircraft', 'BANA', or 'Blackburn Advanced Naval Aircraft' tags, so I will mention them here for those who may be using them as search terms.
 
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Not really, I think I read it somewhere and can't remember where. Could be From 'Spitfire to Eurofighter'.

I think it was Blackburn ARNA, which became Black burnARNA which became black banana. Peeled bananas were the all-white nuclear strike jobs.

Anyone give us a steer on this? Maybe it was the Brough Heritage boys winding me up over tea and stickies to see if I'd publish their havers.

Chris
 
The following came up in idle conversation:

Could a Nimrod guide a TV-Martel launched from another aircraft such as a Buccaneer?

Chris
 
CJGibson said:
The following came up in idle conversation:

Could a Nimrod guide a TV-Martel launched from another aircraft such as a Buccaneer?

Chris
Click to expand...
I would say no, I think the radio link was quite a narrow beam and the missile had to stay within it.
 

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