German Midget submarines

moin1900

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Hi everybody

I found some interesting stuff!
Very unknown ! Some original plans!
From the german midget Submarine “DELPHIN I” and “Delphin II”
Also known as “Delphin” and “Großer Delphin”

Delphin I should be a midget demolition submarine with a 1200kg warhead !
Delphin I could use Torpedoes or mines too.
Delphin II should be a midget submarine
Armed with two Torpedoes or mines !

Please look here
http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr
Direct Link
http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/02fonds-collections/banquedocuments/planbato/planbato/fichebato/fichbato.php?id=493

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/KleinUBoot.htm

Many greetings and thanks a lot for help
 
Hi Moin,

I have been following your post for a time, and I must thank for injecting some "new blood" on this site. Regarding your demand, I own the book "Geschichte des Deutsche Ubootbaus", by Eberhard Roessler. In it the two variants of the "Delphin" are depicted, but with less detail ( those in France seem original, the first pic apparently from the company Askania ). Keep on digging for more great stuff.

Wurger
 
Hello :),

original plans from the french navy`s "Service Historique".

http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/02fonds-collections/banquedocuments/planbato/planbato/fichebato/fichbato.php?id=493

Just click in "Plans de Bateaux". Enjoy.
 
Good find, especially the Delphin II. This type isn't shown in Erich Groeners
"Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815 - 1945", only the "Kleiner Delphin" (small
delphin) and the "Großer Delphin" (large delphin) :
 

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Good find, but please look here !
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4672.0.html
Kleiner Delphin = Delphin I and Großer Delphin = Delphin II
The second drawing is the "Vorprojekt" of the Delphin II !

Many greetings
 
Hello,

you`re right. I`ve forgot I even participated in this thread ::). Sorry :-[.
 
Found again, when I browsed through Mallmann-Showel "Uboote gegen England"
(really a large investment, when I bought it back in 1975 or 76 !) :
- project "Seeteufel", also called "Elefant" or "Projekt Lödiges", a tracked
midget submarine, which wouldn't have needed a crane or not even a slip
way to go into action.
- project Grundhai, a deep sea rescue vehicle for depths up to 1000 m
Probably well known to the experts, but maybe interesting for others ..
 

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Hello Jemiba :),

the "Grundhai" was intended ( I read it somewhere ) to cut the PLUTO, pipeline under the Ocean across Great Britain and Normandy. The "Elephant" was the forerunner of those soviet minisubmarines operated in the baltic in the 80`s.
 
"the "Grundhai" was intended to cut the PLUTO"

Well, indeed that would make more sense, than a (pure) rescue vehicle !

But the soviet tracked midget submarines (are there any photos or drawings
of them aroung anywhere ?) were built to crawl along the seabed,AFAIK,
remembering the "problems" in swedish waters. But the tracks of the "Elefant" probably
would have been powered by the Diesel engine and so could have been only used
for beaching. In the mentioned book (although its credibility for me is somewhat snow
shattered now .. ::) ) the problems of bringing those midget submarines into action
are shortly described. Most of them could be transported by flatbed trucks, but they
still needed cranes to put them into and heave them out of the water. And those cranes
were hard to hide !
 
Hi :),

the "Seeteufel" sported a 80hp gasoline engine, as well as a 25hp electric motor borrowed from the "Seehund". It would have a 250hp diesel and a 100hp E-motor along with broader tracks in a developed version (Roessler)(Fock). Harald Fock also stated that a special Lauster-Wargel was intended to enplace and recover minisubmarines from the sea, thus curtailing the need to use cranes.
 
According to Werner Oswald "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Reichswehr, Wehrmacht
und Bundeswehr", the Lauster LW 5 was intended for towing a special plough, to dig
trenches. But of course it could have easily towed a midget submarine out of the water,
although its own mobility probably was a little bit restricted !
 

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Good find ! At least for me, it's the first source showing the midget submarine "Hai", I still
yet knew only from descriptions.
 
Confused that there does not appear to be a thread already - please merge if I am missing it.

Topics merged into this one


To start with, the Delfin AIP single-crew midget sub. 17kt submerged which is very fast but still much slower than Japanese designs.

82Rd3Lw.jpg

NT49tYg.jpg

MIV3ya2.jpg
 
Fantastic new thread. It also shows that we are not consistent with the spelling of Delfin/Delphin hence my search efforts achieving a deficiency. Which is correct?

Also, does anyone have any plans or sketches showing the internal layout of the Seeteufel?
 
covert_shores said:
... we are not consistent with the spelling of Delfin/Delphin hence my search efforts achieving a deficiency. Which is correct?

Nowadays both spellings are correct, but looking at German ships named after this sea mammal, the spelling based on
the scientific name seems to have been mainly used before the orthography reform. So I would rather use "Delphin".
 
I didn't know that about the Hecht, presumably on the bow? Intriguing. Doesn't seem very practical though, I can imagine a world of complications in operation.

Do you know of any plans?

I did have the good fortune to converse with a former Hecht + Seehund captain during my book research and he certainly viewed the Hecht as a training boat. Although that was the in-service perspective.
 
The "Hecht" was also meant to deliver a detachable mine head, I can`t remember if it was to be clamped to ship hulls or if it was of the "limpet" type. Besides Eberhard Rössler you should also consult Harald Focke`s works. I will have a look at it by friday.
 
Here are the mentioned drawings of the Typ XXVII Hecht, the first, showing the variant
armed with a torpedo is from Erich Gröner "Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815 - 1945", vol.3,
the other one from J.P. Mallmann-Snowell "Uboote gegen England".
 

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Got it!!! Jens, would you be so kind to correct my translation?

Fock tells about the armament intended for the "Hecht", and "a)" was a G7 torpedo and...

"b) Kopf des bootes als mine(haftmine) ausgebildet, die vom inneren des bootes gelöst werden konnte,
c) abkuppelbarer, mit einer atmungsanlage und einer ausstiegluke versehener sonderkopf zur aufnahme von zwei nebeneinander sitzenden kampfschwimmern. Diese sollten entweder zum einsatz von unterwasser-sprengladungen in einem feindlichen hafen bzw. zu raid-unternehmungen mit dem sonderkopf oder mittels schlauchboot an land abgesetzt werden. Ausrüstung, waffen usw. waren in gummibeuteln verpackt. Praktisch wurden minen- und kampfschwimmerkopf nie realisiert".

b) the head of the boat as a limpet mine could be disengaged from the inside,
c) Disengageable head, provided with a breathing system and an exiting hatch, admiting two frogmen seated side by side. These could be deployed to place underwater charges in an enemy harbour or in commando operations with the special head or using rubber rafts to land. Equipment, weapons etc, were packed in rubber bags. Actually, these mine and combat swimmer heads were not built".

No plans, but Fock hints a source, not explicitly on this particular subject. It is "Aschmoneit, Ch (should be Cristoph Aschmoneit, a U-boat engineer), Kurze Aufzeichnungen über die Klein-Ubootentwicklungen der Deutschen Kriegsmarine", an unpublished manuscript.



actually nothing to correct !
;)
 
I have a research related question, what would be best source be (Online or offline.) for the numbering used on the various K-Verband submarines?
 
I`m sorry that I cannot help you, my sources are on technical subjects, not operational.
 
Hi :),

the "Seeteufel" sported a 80hp gasoline engine, as well as a 25hp electric motor borrowed from the "Seehund". It would have a 250hp diesel and a 100hp E-motor along with broader tracks in a developed version (Roessler)(Fock). Harald Fock also stated that a special Lauster-Wargel was intended to enplace and recover minisubmarines from the sea, thus curtailing the need to use cranes.
Which Fock book does he mention that a Laister-Wargel was intended to emplace and recover minisubmarines? I like to research it further.

I have a fascination with the Lauster-Wargel tractors and have some data and models of them now, but never heard of a specialized one to emplace / recover mini-submarines. It is possible, as all of their designs were unique. I doubt that the LW-5 (as pictured above) was the one intended to emplace / retrieve mini-subs for two reasons:

1. it is a heavy tractor for vehicle/panzer recovery and is also seen pulling a trenching plow
2. it could tow a trailer (but any vehicle of appropriate size and power can do the same) so why waste time using a heavy recovery tractor

I believe it was one of the other Lauster-Wargels or possibly one we are not aware of that was in development. Of the known types LW-1 through LW-7 II, some photos are missing. The name of the book you found that data will be helpful for me to marrow it down.
 
Found again, when I browsed through Mallmann-Showel "Uboote gegen England"
(really a large investment, when I bought it back in 1975 or 76 !) :
- project "Seeteufel", also called "Elefant" or "Projekt Lödiges", a tracked
midget submarine, which wouldn't have needed a crane or not even a slip
way to go into action.
- project Grundhai, a deep sea rescue vehicle for depths up to 1000 m
Probably well known to the experts, but maybe interesting for others ..
this is the model of the Grundhai from one of my German secret naval books (don't recall which one) It looks much different than the drawing easily found online. Schatton Models makes a model similar to this one in 1/72 scale. And Unicraft Models makes a model of the drawing you have in 1/72 scale.
 

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pictures of the models I made a few years ago
 

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my Seeteufel made last year (Choroszy models 1/72 resin)
 

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About the German K-Verbände devices, the book "Les engins des K-Verbände : toutes les versions de torpilles humaines, sous-marins de poche et canots explosifs" by "Xavier Tracol" chief editor of the magazine “LOS! " History of naval, air, naval and submarine warfare. published by Caraktère.
 

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