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Planned 1944 attack on Suez Canal with Biber midget subs?

Grey Havoc

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moin1900 said:
And the german project
Blohm&Voss-222 with a "BIBER" midget submarine
for the planned attack of the Suez Canal !
Has anybody come across any more information on this plan? Presumably the units involved would have been the K-Verband and KG 200, over half of the surviving BV 222s having been transfered to the latter (II./KG 200?) from Lufttransportstaffel 222 in June 1944. There should have been around 9 surviving (prototype & production) examples of the BV 222 at that point, four of which had been assigned to the Fliegerführer Atlantik primarily as long range convoy spotters, mostly using bases in France (post D-Day they were transfered to Norway). That would have, in theory at least, left five available for use in the Suez Canal operation.

For those of you not familar with the Biber:
http://world-submarines.webs.com/thegermanbieber.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biber_(submarine)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAPpUfQZz_Q
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Planned 1944 attack on Suez Canal with Bieber midget subs?

Attacking Suez with "Bieber midget subs"???

MWAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!

I think you meant Biber subs...

Couldn't help sharing with you the horrific vision that your title summoned within my twisted mind! (see below)
 

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Grey Havoc

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Stargazer2006 said:
Attacking Suez with "Bieber midget subs"???

MWAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!

I think you meant Biber subs...

Couldn't help sharing with you the horrific vision that your title summoned within my twisted mind! (see below)
Oh No.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrainBleach


Thanks for letting me know!
 

Jemiba

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Fantastic drawing Stéphane ! ;) Just not sure, if teenie girls will laugh about it, too ...

Back to the topic: With about 6 to 7 ts displacement/weight and a length of about 9 m, it
was midsized in the collection of German mioni subs. It maybe could have been transported
with a Bv 222, but how it would have brought into his element then, I could not imagine, at least
not without severe modifications to the flying boat.
Maybe the smaller and much lighter "Neger" or "Marder" could have done the trick.
 

Sea Skimmer

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The book Suicide Squads covers this plan. The idea was to land a single plane with a single submarine on the great Bitter Lake, which would then enter the canal itself and sink a ship to block the channel. The author questions if this was ever a particularly serious proposal, which says a lot in view of some of the other completely absurd plans the book covers.
The smaller German sneak craft had only single torpedoes, and would not stand a high chance of sinking a large ship in the channel. Two torpedoes isn't certain either, buts it certainly far more likely. The reason for seeking to use a submarine at all was because since 1941 the British had kept large numbers of lookouts along the banks of the Suez canal to spot German aerial mines being planted in the the waterway, allowing them to be quickly swept up or destroyed with depth charges.
 

Jemiba

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Fully agree about the chances of a success for a vessel with just one torpedo, my thoughts were just,
that maybe two of those "One-man-torpedos" could have been carried under the wings of a Bv 222 Viking
and launched just by winching them down after landing. The Biber probably would have to be carried
inside the aircraft and I se no way of launching it then, at least not quickly.
 

Lauge

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Re: Planned 1944 attack on Suez Canal with Bieber midget subs?

Stargazer2006 said:
Couldn't help sharing with you the horrific vision that your title summoned within my twisted mind! (see below)
Sweet Zombie Jesus!!! Somebody please inform the UN - Those things needs to be on the same list as napalm, nerve gas and expanding bullets. In fact, the image of those things needs to be on that list.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 

Sea Skimmer

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Jemiba said:
Fully agree about the chances of a success for a vessel with just one torpedo, my thoughts were just,
that maybe two of those "One-man-torpedos" could have been carried under the wings of a Bv 222 Viking
and launched just by winching them down after landing. The Biber probably would have to be carried
inside the aircraft and I se no way of launching it then, at least not quickly.

If you can make it fit at all I think it could be launched quickly enough, just shove it into the water. The human torpedoes still weighed around 6000lb so that's going to be a major wing modification to install a hardpoint and hoist in its own right. But yeah, its all very open to question as to if this would really ever work or was thought out in any useful detail.


The torpedo armed human torpedoes are pretty hopeless in action in any event, the Neger can't even submerge and was known for asphyxiating its pilot. Half of all those deployed were lost in accidents and it had such minor problems as the torpedo failing to release upon firing and dragging the entire thing and its pilot into the target. Many of them were manned by special punishment units. The 'improved' Marder could dive but had massive problems with depth keeping which would make it likely that it would hit the shallow bottom and get stuck. Biber was awful, but it was more credible as a submarine and had better pilot and cruising endurance, which is important since you might have to wait a while for a ship of a decent size to steam past.
 

M. A. Rozon

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Re: Planned 1944 attack on Suez Canal with Bieber midget subs?

Stargazer2006 said:
Attacking Suez with "Bieber midget subs" ???

MWAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!

I think you meant Biber subs...

Couldn't help sharing with you the horrific vision that your title summoned within my twisted mind! (see below)
Been away for a while and just went through the thread......

Yes, your mind is twisted. I like that!

Bigger Guns, MORE POWER!
 

bigvlada

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Wouldn't it be easier to just use antiship missile? By 1944, they had some experience with those against armored ships.
 

Jemiba

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I think, surprise and catching the defences off-guard would have been most important. Two or three
flying boats, flying low maybe could have delivered some kind of torpedo carrier unnoticed, which would
have sneaked into the canal and attacked considerable time later. Defence by radar and fighter aircraft
would have been much more difficult, than against a bombing attack, I think.
 

Sea Skimmer

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By mid 1944 allied jamming made the Germans anti ship guided bombs almost completely ineffective. Both barrage and spoofing jammers were in service. The Germans attempted to make wire guided versions as a countermeasure, but I don't think they ever got into service. Also a high flying bomber over Suez in 1944 probably had an even worse chance of survival then a giant flying boat at low level. Then at least it could sneak in over the Sinia which I doubt had any air defenses on it prior to the canal itself. Fly high and you get seen 200nm away and die from hoards of allied fighters.
 

Grey Havoc

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Re: Planned 1944 attack on Suez Canal with Bieber midget subs?

Lauge said:
Stargazer2006 said:
Couldn't help sharing with you the horrific vision that your title summoned within my twisted mind! (see below)
Sweet Zombie Jesus!!! Somebody please inform the UN - Those things needs to be on the same list as napalm, nerve gas and expanding bullets. In fact, the image of those things needs to be on that list.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
M. A. Rozon said:
Been away for a while and just went through the thread......

Yes, your mind is twisted. I like that!

Bigger Guns, MORE POWER!
Grey Havoc said:
It would appear that the Red Chinese government also has a poor opinion of Mr. Bieber: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/controversial-justin-bieber-banned-china-order-purify-nation/
 

Michel Van

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so far i know were several plans to destroy the Suez Canal between 1941 and 1944

most plane were Luftwaffe Kamikaze attack on Canal
first was Military gliders full of explosive flow by volunteer
the DLR was order to study ideal combination of glider and tow aircraft.
final proposals were to drop several aircraft will with explosive on canal in 1944

the Kriegsmarine had also there Ideas...
 

covert_shores

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Agree with the likelihood of success but this was a strategic target so no surprise such plans were hatched.


Re seaplanes deploying 'midget subs', both the Italians and British advanced plans to carry 'chariot' style wet subs on seaplanes. And the British also tried explosive boats dropped on parachute from lancasters (with the crew in the boat!?!?!).

In the event neither Italian nor British considered it viable. But flying boats were routinely used for deploying special forces in inflatable boats or canoes.
 
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