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German AGLT

Wurger

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Hi ;),

do you know about "Village Inn"? It was a Automatic Gun-Laying Turret, laid by radar and developed by the british since 1943.

What about a german AGLT?

Please notice the second aircraft profile. That late model tail turret has yagi antennae, and that bulge isn`t a periscopic head as in the early models. Could this be the first attempt at this subject? Image from Heinz Nowarra`s "Die Deutsche Luftrustung", 2º volume.

Hopping to know from you, guys.
 

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Basil

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Your question is a few days old ;) but I am curious if you have found out something in the meantime. As you certainly know there were German developments in blind firing weapon turrets (Heckenrose, etc.). However I had no luck in finding a useful technical description of such systems.
 

Wurger

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Hi Basil, I do have something more on German AGLT but give me some time, I'm out for the moment.
 

lastdingo

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The only German automatic gunlaying development was AFAIK not advanced in development and about a weapon of 55 mm calibre (medium AAA).
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_55_Gerat58.php

The rear antennas on German multi-engine aircraft are warning radars (Neptun R2 and R3 versions, for example).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptun_(radar)

Night fighters did have automatic fire modes (automated trigger pulling) for fixed forward-firing guns (using their main radar).
 

lastdingo

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https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2017/04/27/5-cm-flak-41-5-5-cm-gerat-58/

5.5 cm Gerät 58

Was designed as part of an integrated weapons system which included radar and fire control equipment. The development started in 1943 but not concluded before the end of the war.
 

Basil

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@ Würger,

thx. Detailed information would be highly appreciated.

@ lastdingo,

thx for the link. Yes, Gerät 58 with its computerized aiming would have been an advanced mobile medium altitude flak. There was also a planned version for fighter aircrafts for attacking bombers outside the reach of its defensive armament (it was calculated that a bomber would be shot down with a 95 % probability at a distance of 2000 m in 7,9 sec firing duration, and from 1500 m in 4,8 sec).

Just for info concerning the aglt for aircrafts - many of the German 1945 nightfighter projects had a blindfiring tail gun connected to a parabolic radar dish.
 

Basil

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Würger,

just asking - any chance of getting some additional info in German AGLTs?

Thx in advance.
 

Wurger

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In CIOS File report XXX-118", Radio & Radar Research Establishments of the German Services Ministries", page 33, we can know that the british AGLT "Village Inn" was captured and "quite efficiently" analised by FFO, most probably the best scientific institution devoted to airborne electronics in Germany, by the end of 1944. I recall the americans were quite surprised to know that FFO had understood and started to jam the "Loran" navigation system within two weeks.
In the same report, page 58, a Dr. Krüger from the TAL (Technische Akademie der Luftwaffe) in Bad Blankenburg, when interrogated by allied officers said he had worked with AGLT using first yagi aerials, later changing to dieletric antennae.
The Heinkel P.1061 Ia with Jumo 222 above seems to have a radar similar to the Pauke-A, but please see this image, taken from US Naval Technical Mission in Europe, Technical Report 349-45, German Aicraft Armament - Turrets & Remote Control Mounts
It shows a set of yagi antennae, coupled to the remote control mount. The contents relate to Rheinmetall-Borsig, unfortunatelly not taking in consideration the electronic part of the subsystem, but it should be a range only radar, used in conjunction with the EZ44 gyro sight, which it fed.
According Leo Brandt the germans were working at the 1st of July of 1944 in the "Schwenk-Pauke", a centimetric (3,1-3,2 cm) gun-laying radar for swiveling gun mounts, a work undertaken by Telefunken and Loewe-Opta. They had under study the use of auto-tracking coupled to a computer (AEG, LGW and FFO) and, at the same date, were considering using PPI screens to allocate targets to battle stations, e.g. in a heavy bomber.
Finally, the Heckenrose, a tail radar controlling rear gun mounts. I recall a post-war report by Brunolf Baade stating the Heckenrose was a Junkers idea, but we can see it in other companies projects as well. Leo Brandt also mentions it, not as a radar per se but as the installations name.
 

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Basil

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Würger,

these are highly interesting pieces of information. Are any of these sources available?
 

Wurger

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these are highly interesting pieces of information. Are any of these sources available?

No, I bought copies from NARA and the IWM. Do not rely on Internet informations repeated/copied over and over again and most usually posted by someone with a scant knowledge of the subjects. Primary (and secundary) sources are the only ones you should consider, and even those must be abridged, crossed with other sources and put in context. My experience tells that british post-war reports tend to be biased and performed by unprofessional personnel, with some masterly exceptions. To grasp this reason please read Tom Bower`s "The Paperclip Conspiracy" and, to a lesser degree, Sean Longden`s "T-Force, the Forgotten Hero`s of 1945". Also this website, where Arthur Bauer deconstructs many myths:

http://www.cdvandt.org/index.htm

Take your time browsing this website, which is packed with excellent information on german electronics, although is isn`t by far complete. And resort to archives whenever possible.
 

Basil

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Thank you for the links. Arthur Bauer's site is excellent; I have known it for many years.

I have also made the experience that British post war reports sometimes seem inaccurate and a little bit snotty.

What is NARA and IWM?
 

Wurger

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National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).
Imperial War Museum (IWM).
 

Wurger

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In the Brunolfe Baade`s report I`ve mentioned in post #10, the tail radar ranging device "Heckenrose", a Telefunken product, was proposed to be installed in a manned tail turret on a Ju 188. I know two who were built or reached the mockup stage: the Ikaria HL 131Z/1 (2x13mm), tested in Rechlin in late 1943, and the FHL 151/1 (1x20mm) by L.A.B. The report does not ID the mount, unfortunatelly, but we may assume it was swivelling and not fixed as in Arado`s and Heinkel`s jet fighter projects tail gunnery radars.
 

ACResearcher

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Wurger,

So nice to see another researcher who relies on ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS rather than regurgitating previously-written, badly researched (if at all), incomplete-at-best-but-usually-wrong garbage typically taken from some previously-written piece of drakh.

I salute you, sir!

AlanG
 

Wurger

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The report is integrally published in this book:


My edition is the early one by Podzun-Pallas. It has a great deal of aircraft armaments used in Junkers aircraft, some of them just proposed. My favorite is the best depiction I`ve seen on the Mauser MG 210 (with great specs), not to mention the FDL-B 103Z, the MK 212, various "motorkanone" and many other weapon systems. Not to one who has a heart condition.
 

iverson

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Wurger,

So nice to see another researcher who relies on ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS rather than regurgitating previously-written, badly researched (if at all), incomplete-at-best-but-usually-wrong garbage typically taken from some previously-written piece of drakh.

I salute you, sir!

AlanG

Yes, but lets be kind to those gone before. Your work, Wurger's, mine, and everyone else's is only as good as the resources available to each at the time. And who knows how inadequate it will look next year, much less in ten? Knowing that I'll be wrong sooner or later (probably sooner) is part of the fun of scholarship. <i>Sic transit gloria mundi</i>? (as my wife says, "who is this Gloria you keep talking about?")
 

ACResearcher

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I have a great deal of respect for some of those who have gone before, some of whom were or are my friends. I have little or no respect for those who just lift inaccurate information from badly (if at all) researched books that have gone before, or do partial research and fill out the rest with copies of manuals. I've spent most of the past five-to-ten years gathering original source information for a number of books and articles I have planned for the future. Of course this has stood in the way of getting a partially-researched subject into print, but my goal is have volumes that are as complete as possible so that future readers and researchers have a solid basis of provable fact to draw upon. We can only hope that some of the document repositories will be made available to us to continue to flesh out our research.

AlanG
 

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