French TSTO studies of the 60's

Archibald

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Found this at astronautix

In his (brilliant) article on Mirage mach 3 Mr Mirage 4000
briefly mention that the CPE (a kind of French RAND corp. created by minister of defence Pierre Mesmer in 1964) studied a
"lanceur de satellite a propulsion atmosphérique"
which translate by "an airbreathing satellite launcher"

Any infos on the subject ?
 
Just some pictures, hopefully it's from the project, you're looking for :
from Aviation Week 9/1965 and "Dassault - 50 Years of Aeronautical Adventure 1945-1995")
 

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WUNDERBAR!!!! Thank you very much. TAS of the 60's led to Star-H of the late 80's a rather similar concept.
 
Wow, the mythical Blackstar's heritage is French! ;) In all seriousness though, it's a nice-looking concept and I was struck to see VAGUE similartites to the Blackstar concept (especially in ventral release of the second stage). I did say VAGUE, before anyone here tries to correct me. Of course the ventral launching TSTO idea was looked at by Boeing in the 90's, IIRC.

It's a shame this concept never took off.
 
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on) ;)
 
Surely this the topic should be TSTO (Two Stage To Orbit) not SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit)?

Mistral anyone?! :)
 

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Yes it should - my own mistake! ::)

Keep on posting your pics Mr Bond...
 
Barrington Bond said:
Mistral anyone?! :)

that first picture i see the back side of Mistral Aircraft

more data on MISTRAL
join venture study of
Entwicklungring Nord (ERNO), Nord-Aviation and SNECMA

First stage aircraft
51,8 meter long
Ram engine trust 72 tons max speed mach 7

Second stage under aircraft.
25,9 meter long Lifting Body
6 rocket engine (LOX/LH2) 4 with trust 35 tons. 2 with 0.7 ton trust.
weight 300 ton payload 3 ton

Flight profile
take off Mistral to height of 35 km and speed of mach 7
separation of Lifting body and ignition rocket engine
the Lifting body flight in to 300 km high orbit

source
Frontiers of Space
Philip Bono/Kenneth Gatland

got some one, picture of second stage of Mistral ?

after Ron miller book "the dream machine" on page 496
claims that LB 21 Bumerang was flight test Model of MISTRAL second stage !
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2890.0.html
 
Well it seems that British (Hawker Siddeley and RAE) French (CNES, Dassault, Sud, Nord) and German (Sanger/ Junkers RT-8) studies were all part of an ESRO program, the European Aerospace Transporter

It aparently ran from 1966 to 1969 but was doomed from the start (Europa fiasco probably didn't helped much)

More info on this program ?
 
the European Aerospace Transporter is one of most unknown Space Program !
because lack of Information

British (Hawker Siddeley and RAE) "MUSTARD" ?
French (CNES, Dassault, Sud, Nord) "Le transporteur aerospatial"
French Germand study (ERNO, Nord-Aviation, SNECMA) "MISTRAL"
German (Junkers ) "JuRT-8-01"

most of those study were made 1960 until 1964

so Wat happen ? unknown !
but in 1964 had ELDO/ESRO first political crisis

by the way
"Le transporteur aerospatial" is wrong label as "Space Taxi" in Ron miller the dream machine on page 496
 
I remember an article in Science&Vie from 1964 were they briefly mentioned the Dassault T.A.S, saying it weighed around 280 tons and had three stages.

They also mention Sanger and Dynasoar respective death, which were very close - DynaSoar was cancelled on december 10th 1963, Sanger died in Berlin on 10th february 1964-
 
The Nord/ERNO proposal :
 

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Archibald said:
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on) ;)

I was going to say, most multi-stage w/first stage fly-back capability designs end up looking the same or at least very close (the one exception, use of converted off-the-shelf options like B-52s and airliners aside, seems to be the White Knight series in all its glorious weirdness)

That said, this one sure is a looker :)
 
Quote from: Archibald on Yesterday at 11:05:41 am
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on)


True, that. TSTO concepts, it seems, are a dime a dozen. Same goes for those who aren't willing to take a chance on good designs like these. And that's the real tragedy, right there. One of these days perhaps.
 
Well it also depends if the design is realistic or not!

Turboramjets are complex, heavy and expensive, and even with 6 of them the airbreathing first-stage top speed is "only" mach 6.

At such "low" speed you still need expendable upper stages to reach orbit...
 
MIRAGE 4000 said:
Interesting project

I will search if I find something in my archives

Well it seems that you won't need all your archives : Espace Magazine of this month have an article on... Nord VERAS ! More details later
 
Were there any other uses proposed for that mothership?

Off the top of my head, I can see various mission modules taking up that space the orbiter would normally occupy. Maybe weapons, ELINT, or a recce pod. Or how about some kind of tanker module, maybe?

May as well get more for your money, right?

Moonbat
 
Re: French TSTO studies of the 60's | small boost-glide demonstrator project

In the late 1960s and early 1970s France planned to test a small ASSET like, boost-glide experimental aerospace research vehicle called VERA.

Very little is known about it -- or rather remembered because as I can recall it got cancelled. The project is properly mentionned in Hallion's "Hypersonic Revolution" and may have helped engineers to gain some experience to carve out the Hermes project -- but this I am not sure and has to be fact checked.

I could track down one relevant paper of interest:

Perez, Syre, Billon, Pichoir et Guyot (Tréfimétaux GP, Nord-Aviation, Onera
"Utilisation d'un alliage de niobium dans la réalisation d'un véhicule hypersonique"
Rev. Phys. Appl. (Paris) 5, 455-465 (1970)

Abstract: The use of a niobium-base alloy in an experimental structure of a hypersonic glider model (VERAS project) has required specific studies by each contributor to the project. The PECHINEY Group improved the formulation and the fabrication process of the alloy and accumulated data on its properties (tensile and creep strengths, oxidation resistance...). NORD-AVIATION Company worked out the technology of manufacturing the sandwich panels as described in the paper, and carried out the in-plant application of the protective coatings. ONERA performed a preliminary study of the protective system (coating selection - set up of process for applying the coating) ; this research work is summarized and the most interesting results for the related application are given. It is worthwhile to notice that the technology developed for this project has been selected for the design of parts of the Space Shutlle Vehicle.

link: http://rphysap.journaldephysique.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/rphysap/abs/1970/03/rphysap_1970__5_3_455_0/rphysap_1970__5_3_455_0.html
 
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 
Re: French TSTO studies of the 60's | small boost-glide demonstrator project

antigravite said:
In the late 1960s and early 1970s France planned to test a small ASSET like, boost-glide experimental aerospace research vehicle called VERA.

Very little is known about it -- or rather remembered because as I can recall it got cancelled. The project is properly mentionned in Hallion's "Hypersonic Revolution" and may have helped engineers to gain some experience to carve out the Hermes project -- but this I am not sure and has to be fact checked.

Nord Aviation designed in the late 60s the hypersonic aircraft named VERAS (Véhicule Expérimental de Recherche Aérothermodynamique et Structurale - Structural and Aerothermodynamic Research Experimental Vehicle).
Max weight: 1500kg
Max speed Mach 10 during 30s at 50000m.

Sorry I could not remember from where I have copied this drawing of the VERAS.
 

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Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO
 
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

I did scan at a high resolution (600dpi), but the original magazine is almost as old as I am and this website doesn't allow me to post uncompressed scans :(......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

Better? Part 1......
 
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

Better? Part 2......
 
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

Better? Part 3......
 
Thanks a million. Now to type up that whole article into Google translate...
 
ozmosis said:
Thanks a million. Now to type up that whole article into Google translate...

Translation part one

For the aerospace transporter
The G.A.M. Dassault want to win the fight about weight


text in bold
-the aerospace transporter
has ability to operate on airports thanks to it horizontal take off and landing

- the Payload gonna be 2 to 3 (metric) tons in Orbiter
Wat correspond a take off weight 175 to 280 (metric) Tons

-So far as possibly the stages of Transporter
are recover and reusable
if Second stage booster is expendable the Takeoff mass is reduce about 35%

-the two stage are limited to acceleration to 2,5 g
Wat permits transport untraining person or fragile instruments

- At last the Transporter conserver one soupless of classic aircraft
and dispose a good maneuverability during return to base
at last also the possibility to change the base by the transporter himself

-On plus the concept use of susceptible technology
in reasonable delay and interest for other programs

Illustration explanation

1. using it's 6 jet-engine the Transporter takes off at 300 Km/H
2. with help of After burner it accelerate to Mach 4.5
were second stage ignite, the Jet-engine shut down
3. at Mach 6 and trajectory in angles 35°
the second stage separate from first stage who restart there 6 jet-engine
4. to build off speed the First stage makes a ballstic flight down to 30000 Meters
5. the second stage drop its booster and enter Orbit
later reignite it engine for transfer orbit to Space Station
6. after Mission it reenter in Atmosphere
at 70000 meter after stabilisation manover the wings are extended
 
This Dassault concept always reminded me of the 70's model rocket put out by Estes called the "orbital transport" (The difference being Dassault's design had the shuttle attached to the bottom and Estes was vice-versa)
 

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