• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

French TSTO studies of the 60's

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
Found this at astronautix
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/cnee1963.htm

In his (brilliant) article on Mirage mach 3 Mr Mirage 4000
briefly mention that the CPE (a kind of French RAND corp. created by minister of defence Pierre Mesmer in 1964) studied a
"lanceur de satellite a propulsion atmosphérique"
which translate by "an airbreathing satellite launcher"

Any infos on the subject ?
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,291
Reaction score
1,242
Just some pictures, hopefully it's from the project, you're looking for :
from Aviation Week 9/1965 and "Dassault - 50 Years of Aeronautical Adventure 1945-1995")
 

Attachments

  • Dassault TAS 1.JPG
    Dassault TAS 1.JPG
    45.8 KB · Views: 343
  • Dassault TAS_p1.gif
    Dassault TAS_p1.gif
    105 KB · Views: 381
  • Dassault-Space-Transport.JPG
    Dassault-Space-Transport.JPG
    38.5 KB · Views: 347

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
WUNDERBAR!!!! Thank you very much. TAS of the 60's led to Star-H of the late 80's a rather similar concept.
 

Barrington Bond

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
936
Reaction score
142
...and some more!
 

Attachments

  • scan0010.jpg
    scan0010.jpg
    113.7 KB · Views: 283
  • aaa3 (2).jpg
    aaa3 (2).jpg
    65.9 KB · Views: 293

XP67_Moonbat

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
2,162
Reaction score
82
Wow, the mythical Blackstar's heritage is French! ;) In all seriousness though, it's a nice-looking concept and I was struck to see VAGUE similartites to the Blackstar concept (especially in ventral release of the second stage). I did say VAGUE, before anyone here tries to correct me. Of course the ventral launching TSTO idea was looked at by Boeing in the 90's, IIRC.

It's a shame this concept never took off.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on) ;)
 

Barrington Bond

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
936
Reaction score
142
Surely this the topic should be TSTO (Two Stage To Orbit) not SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit)?

Mistral anyone?! :)
 

Attachments

  • aaa4 (2).jpg
    aaa4 (2).jpg
    49.2 KB · Views: 137

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
Yes it should - my own mistake! ::)

Keep on posting your pics Mr Bond...
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,151
Reaction score
1,289
Renamed topic.
 

Michel Van

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,962
Reaction score
1,311
Barrington Bond said:
Mistral anyone?! :)

that first picture i see the back side of Mistral Aircraft

more data on MISTRAL
join venture study of
Entwicklungring Nord (ERNO), Nord-Aviation and SNECMA

First stage aircraft
51,8 meter long
Ram engine trust 72 tons max speed mach 7

Second stage under aircraft.
25,9 meter long Lifting Body
6 rocket engine (LOX/LH2) 4 with trust 35 tons. 2 with 0.7 ton trust.
weight 300 ton payload 3 ton

Flight profile
take off Mistral to height of 35 km and speed of mach 7
separation of Lifting body and ignition rocket engine
the Lifting body flight in to 300 km high orbit

source
Frontiers of Space
Philip Bono/Kenneth Gatland

got some one, picture of second stage of Mistral ?

after Ron miller book "the dream machine" on page 496
claims that LB 21 Bumerang was flight test Model of MISTRAL second stage !
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2890.0.html
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
Well it seems that British (Hawker Siddeley and RAE) French (CNES, Dassault, Sud, Nord) and German (Sanger/ Junkers RT-8) studies were all part of an ESRO program, the European Aerospace Transporter

It aparently ran from 1966 to 1969 but was doomed from the start (Europa fiasco probably didn't helped much)

More info on this program ?
 

Michel Van

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,962
Reaction score
1,311
the European Aerospace Transporter is one of most unknown Space Program !
because lack of Information

British (Hawker Siddeley and RAE) "MUSTARD" ?
French (CNES, Dassault, Sud, Nord) "Le transporteur aerospatial"
French Germand study (ERNO, Nord-Aviation, SNECMA) "MISTRAL"
German (Junkers ) "JuRT-8-01"

most of those study were made 1960 until 1964

so Wat happen ? unknown !
but in 1964 had ELDO/ESRO first political crisis

by the way
"Le transporteur aerospatial" is wrong label as "Space Taxi" in Ron miller the dream machine on page 496
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
I remember an article in Science&Vie from 1964 were they briefly mentioned the Dassault T.A.S, saying it weighed around 280 tons and had three stages.

They also mention Sanger and Dynasoar respective death, which were very close - DynaSoar was cancelled on december 10th 1963, Sanger died in Berlin on 10th february 1964-
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,291
Reaction score
1,242
The Nord/ERNO proposal :
 

Attachments

  • Nord-ERNO.JPG
    Nord-ERNO.JPG
    118.8 KB · Views: 232

Just call me Ray

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
674
Reaction score
13
Archibald said:
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on) ;)

I was going to say, most multi-stage w/first stage fly-back capability designs end up looking the same or at least very close (the one exception, use of converted off-the-shelf options like B-52s and airliners aside, seems to be the White Knight series in all its glorious weirdness)

That said, this one sure is a looker :)
 

XP67_Moonbat

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
2,162
Reaction score
82
Quote from: Archibald on Yesterday at 11:05:41 am
There had been zillion of delta-wing first stages looking similar to this one.
It's just one among others... (Sanger, Spacecab, BlackStar and so on)


True, that. TSTO concepts, it seems, are a dime a dozen. Same goes for those who aren't willing to take a chance on good designs like these. And that's the real tragedy, right there. One of these days perhaps.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
Well it also depends if the design is realistic or not!

Turboramjets are complex, heavy and expensive, and even with 6 of them the airbreathing first-stage top speed is "only" mach 6.

At such "low" speed you still need expendable upper stages to reach orbit...
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,330
Reaction score
3,342
MIRAGE 4000 said:
Interesting project

I will search if I find something in my archives

Well it seems that you won't need all your archives : Espace Magazine of this month have an article on... Nord VERAS ! More details later
 

XP67_Moonbat

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
2,162
Reaction score
82
Were there any other uses proposed for that mothership?

Off the top of my head, I can see various mission modules taking up that space the orbiter would normally occupy. Maybe weapons, ELINT, or a recce pod. Or how about some kind of tanker module, maybe?

May as well get more for your money, right?

Moonbat
 

Just call me Ray

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
674
Reaction score
13
I imagine you can fit a passenger pod in there for a nice Concorde replacement.



...or a few megatons....
 

antigravite

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
749
Reaction score
99
Re: French TSTO studies of the 60's | small boost-glide demonstrator project

In the late 1960s and early 1970s France planned to test a small ASSET like, boost-glide experimental aerospace research vehicle called VERA.

Very little is known about it -- or rather remembered because as I can recall it got cancelled. The project is properly mentionned in Hallion's "Hypersonic Revolution" and may have helped engineers to gain some experience to carve out the Hermes project -- but this I am not sure and has to be fact checked.

I could track down one relevant paper of interest:

Perez, Syre, Billon, Pichoir et Guyot (Tréfimétaux GP, Nord-Aviation, Onera
"Utilisation d'un alliage de niobium dans la réalisation d'un véhicule hypersonique"
Rev. Phys. Appl. (Paris) 5, 455-465 (1970)

Abstract: The use of a niobium-base alloy in an experimental structure of a hypersonic glider model (VERAS project) has required specific studies by each contributor to the project. The PECHINEY Group improved the formulation and the fabrication process of the alloy and accumulated data on its properties (tensile and creep strengths, oxidation resistance...). NORD-AVIATION Company worked out the technology of manufacturing the sandwich panels as described in the paper, and carried out the in-plant application of the protective coatings. ONERA performed a preliminary study of the protective system (coating selection - set up of process for applying the coating) ; this research work is summarized and the most interesting results for the related application are given. It is worthwhile to notice that the technology developed for this project has been selected for the design of parts of the Space Shutlle Vehicle.

link: http://rphysap.journaldephysique.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/rphysap/abs/1970/03/rphysap_1970__5_3_455_0/rphysap_1970__5_3_455_0.html
 

Barrington Bond

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
936
Reaction score
142
Got this a while back on Ebay...
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0005.jpg
    IMG_0005.jpg
    41 KB · Views: 131
  • IMG_0004.jpg
    IMG_0004.jpg
    41.6 KB · Views: 92
  • IMG_0003.jpg
    IMG_0003.jpg
    115.5 KB · Views: 68
  • IMG_0002.jpg
    IMG_0002.jpg
    123.7 KB · Views: 139
  • IMG_0001.jpg
    IMG_0001.jpg
    122.6 KB · Views: 172
  • IMG.jpg
    IMG.jpg
    96.3 KB · Views: 201

Caravellarella

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
219
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

Retrofit

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
604
Reaction score
135
Re: French TSTO studies of the 60's | small boost-glide demonstrator project

antigravite said:
In the late 1960s and early 1970s France planned to test a small ASSET like, boost-glide experimental aerospace research vehicle called VERA.

Very little is known about it -- or rather remembered because as I can recall it got cancelled. The project is properly mentionned in Hallion's "Hypersonic Revolution" and may have helped engineers to gain some experience to carve out the Hermes project -- but this I am not sure and has to be fact checked.

Nord Aviation designed in the late 60s the hypersonic aircraft named VERAS (Véhicule Expérimental de Recherche Aérothermodynamique et Structurale - Structural and Aerothermodynamic Research Experimental Vehicle).
Max weight: 1500kg
Max speed Mach 10 during 30s at 50000m.

Sorry I could not remember from where I have copied this drawing of the VERAS.
 

Attachments

  • VERAS.jpg
    VERAS.jpg
    7.8 KB · Views: 164

ozmosis

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
82
Reaction score
17
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO
 

Caravellarella

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
219
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

I did scan at a high resolution (600dpi), but the original magazine is almost as old as I am and this website doesn't allow me to post uncompressed scans :(......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

Caravellarella

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
219
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

Better? Part 1......
 

Caravellarella

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
219
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

Better? Part 2......
 

Caravellarella

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
219
Re: Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO project......

ozmosis said:
Caravellarella said:
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Transporteur Spatiale TSTO "project" with a Concorde-like booster and a swing-wing "navette" or shuttle......

The article comes from the 15th July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Is there any chance you could scan these at a high resolution? I would love to able to read the article

I also will try to scan and upload a color concept image in a book I have of the Dassault TSTO

Better? Part 3......
 

ozmosis

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
82
Reaction score
17
Thanks a million. Now to type up that whole article into Google translate...
 

Michel Van

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,962
Reaction score
1,311
ozmosis said:
Thanks a million. Now to type up that whole article into Google translate...

Translation part one

For the aerospace transporter
The G.A.M. Dassault want to win the fight about weight


text in bold
-the aerospace transporter
has ability to operate on airports thanks to it horizontal take off and landing

- the Payload gonna be 2 to 3 (metric) tons in Orbiter
Wat correspond a take off weight 175 to 280 (metric) Tons

-So far as possibly the stages of Transporter
are recover and reusable
if Second stage booster is expendable the Takeoff mass is reduce about 35%

-the two stage are limited to acceleration to 2,5 g
Wat permits transport untraining person or fragile instruments

- At last the Transporter conserver one soupless of classic aircraft
and dispose a good maneuverability during return to base
at last also the possibility to change the base by the transporter himself

-On plus the concept use of susceptible technology
in reasonable delay and interest for other programs

Illustration explanation

1. using it's 6 jet-engine the Transporter takes off at 300 Km/H
2. with help of After burner it accelerate to Mach 4.5
were second stage ignite, the Jet-engine shut down
3. at Mach 6 and trajectory in angles 35°
the second stage separate from first stage who restart there 6 jet-engine
4. to build off speed the First stage makes a ballstic flight down to 30000 Meters
5. the second stage drop its booster and enter Orbit
later reignite it engine for transfer orbit to Space Station
6. after Mission it reenter in Atmosphere
at 70000 meter after stabilisation manover the wings are extended
 

ozmosis

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
82
Reaction score
17
This Dassault concept always reminded me of the 70's model rocket put out by Estes called the "orbital transport" (The difference being Dassault's design had the shuttle attached to the bottom and Estes was vice-versa)
 

Attachments

  • OT-upscale-Comparison2.jpg
    OT-upscale-Comparison2.jpg
    49.8 KB · Views: 73
  • ot.jpg
    ot.jpg
    31.8 KB · Views: 69
  • Orbital_transport_RS_large.jpg
    Orbital_transport_RS_large.jpg
    41.9 KB · Views: 144

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,771
Reaction score
4,890
From Aviation magazine 1965.
 

Attachments

  • 1.png
    1.png
    916.5 KB · Views: 39
  • 2.png
    2.png
    238.7 KB · Views: 38
  • 3.png
    3.png
    224.5 KB · Views: 40
  • 4.png
    4.png
    254.1 KB · Views: 45
  • 5.png
    5.png
    300.4 KB · Views: 45

Similar threads

Top