• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Focke-Achgelis Fa 336

Wurger

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
975
Reaction score
116
Hi Hesham,

"your" Flettner Fl336 is actually a Focke-Achgelis project. The misinterpretation probably comes from long ago, e.g. the book "Die Deutsche Luftrustung" by Heinz Nowarra, and Rob Arndt`s precipitation. Let me quote Steve Coates excellent book "Helicopters of the Third Reich":
"Consideration was given to an advanced-looking single-rotor version powered by a BMW 801 with twin tail rotors for torque compensation. Intended as a high-speed helicopter, a photo of a model of this design was referred to by Prof. Focke during a presentation given in Berlin on 1 October 1943 to the Deutsche Akademie der Luftfahrtforschung entitled Helicopter Progress. No formal designation has ever been traced for this design which prof. Focke advised had been "postponed for the time beeing"". This project would be the first attack helicopter ever, stemming from the Fa223, and the original Fa336 was a motorised version of the Fa330 "Bachstelze", with a long tail, tail rotor and landing wheels. I strongly recommend Steve`s book to all helicopter buffs or german aviation enthusiasts. Bye.
 

robunos

You're Mad, You Are.....
Senior Member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
Reaction score
331
more information on the Fl 339 in 'Helicopters of the Third Reich', Steves Coates, with our own J C Carbonel, pp 153-4.

cheers,
Robin.
 

JC Carbonel

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
217
Reaction score
78
Thank you about the kind words about Helicopters of the 3rd Reich.

Recent work for Air Magazine has brought me to revisit this theme and I am still undecided about what this model represents.
I had a new look and the transcript of the Focke conference at Akaflieg and he links this model to the Fa 336 which it could not be (from the size of the machine-gun one can see this model depicts a machine somewhat smaller than the Fa 223 but not much).
A post-war "corporate history" document by Vereinigte Flugzeug Werk (post-war follow-up of Focke-Wulf) describes the same aircraft model as "Fa 283" but do not give much details.
And then there is the Focke-designed French SE 3101 with a similar tail rotor architecture which is supposed being a flying mock-up for the SE-3100

So this is a quite circonvoluted story with conflicting elements and no definitive answer so far.

JCC

PS : I don't want to be too nationalistic but IMHO, the first attack helicopter should be the Breguet G-20 built before the war but only completed and never flown in 1947?
http://modelarchives.free.fr/Bestiaire/G20_P/index.html
 

Wurger

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
975
Reaction score
116
When it comes to german helicopters, Steve Coates is the man. His excellent book "Helicopters of the Third Reich" does mention a Fa 223 with a single rotor driven by a BMW 801 with twin tail rotors. It was first seen at a 1943 Berlin presentation on helicopter progresses, organized by the Deutsche Akademie der Luftfahrtforschung . No more data, but a photo of the model is available. It was designated as a "high-speed helicopter".


Here is the picture, taken from Steve`s book. Bear in mind that it isn`t labelled as an attack helicopter, although it had the potential.
Enjoy.
 

Attachments

  • Digitalizar0001[1].gif
    Digitalizar0001[1].gif
    118 KB · Views: 652

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,271
Reaction score
1,120
The fuselage and landing gear resembles very closely the Breguet G.20 !
Just accidentally ? ???
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,227
Reaction score
541
Strangely enough, Justo Miranda shows a completely different helicopter type in this topic as being the Fa 336:

index.php
 

robunos

You're Mad, You Are.....
Senior Member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
Reaction score
331
That looks like the powered Bachstelze as referred to by Wurger in reply #1...


cheers,
Robin.
 

baja

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
32
Reaction score
10
Interisting thing is, a similar project was realized!!! But not in the time of the 40's ... later in 1958. It was by Borgward the Kolibri I.

http://www.peterkurze.de/museum/html/kolibri.html

If i look on this drawing ... it's looks like the same to the Fl 336 sketch show by "hesham".
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,227
Reaction score
541
Still puzzled about the "Fa 336" designation confusion.

Heinz J. Nowarra's Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945 (Volume 2) describes the Fa 336 as follows:

Motorized version of the Fa 330 with a 100 hp engine. This version was completed and flown in a somewhat modified form after the war in France as the SE 3101 by the SNCA du Sud-Est (which also the Fa 223 built after the war as the SE 3000).

The image given by Nowarra is that of the cigar-shaped, glazed-nose model with twin tail-rotor posted earlier in this topic by Justo Miranda. However, this doesn't quite compute with the description of a "motorized version of the Fa 330 with a 100 hp engine"!

Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel's Deutsche Hubschrauber vor 1945
(Waffen-Arsenal #128) gives a much more developed description of the Fa 336 and also provides an original plan that definitely show it to be the other project posted by Justo Miranda in the "other" topic. However, the article seems to indicate that the streamlined helicopter design might simply be a planned production variant of the same:

As a remedy for the tactical shortcomings evidenced in testing the Fa 330, a light helicopter designated Fa 336 was developed. Due to its being motorized, a greater independence from the location of the submarine was to be ensured. In a second stage of the 300-pound Fa 336's design evolution, plans were made for the development of a lightweight anti-submarine helicopter with a 44 kW (60 hp) engine driving the main, as well as the smaller tail rotor simultaneously. Documents captured by the Allies later showed that, instead of the conventional balance of torque, and despite only a brief combustion period, a small liquid rocket engine with 145 kp performance should maintain stability in flight. As opposed to the Fa 330, a reinforced fuselage and a fairing were meant for a future production version, increasing the take-off weight to 300 kg. Eventually a land-based and a sea-based version of that machine would emerge.

What was especially expected of the Fa 336 was the efficient close support of maritime operations, and so a preproduction batch of ten machines was ordered in April 1943 by the OKM in order to begin testing as soon as possible. Construction of the required ten prototype aircraft called for in June was supposed to be in full swing in the late summer of 1943, but the program development dragged on despite the urgency. After a period of adjustment from May 1944 to early 1945 there was a further, unforeseeable delay. Asd a result, only a sample unit under was in construction when the war ended.

What is clear is that the French SE 3101 was a direct adaptation of a German project that was to be developed as the "streamlined" "Fa 336".

What I cannot determine for certain is whether the real Fa 336 (the one that is documented and described as having been partially built) was to evolve into the SE 3101 — in other words, was the SE 3101 or its German equivalent the planned evolution of the Fa 336?

I'm attaching a little diagram to motivate some thinking and hopefully lead other forum members to react and advance the discussion.
 

Attachments

  • evolution.gif
    evolution.gif
    170.4 KB · Views: 401

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,352
Reaction score
4,157
From Waffen-Arsenal band 128,


here is anther drawing to Fa.336.
 

Attachments

  • 336.png
    336.png
    487.1 KB · Views: 89

Similar threads

Top