Firearms secret projects

[Apophenia]

"Repeating Hand-held Improved Non-rifled Ordnance" ... but sorry, no details

 

[Lauge]

Does anybody knows about the RHINO program ? , it was for an advanced shotgun. If I remember correctly the initials were for : Repeater Handheld Improved Non rifled Ordenance.

IIRC, one outgrowth of the RHINO programme was the H&K CAWS:

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh18-e.htm

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

 

[Panzerknacker]

Thanks guys, evidently there is not much about it.

 

[amsci99]

On the Close Assault Weapon System program, there is a almost nothing on the following. Wonder if any of the members have a pic or know anything about these entrants for the program.

Smith & Wesson AS-3
USAC (United States Army Corps) FAS-173
Duncan Gordon CSW-6 belt fed 12g lmg (concept)

On the subject of belt fed shotguns, here's an effort by someone who is known only as Derek;

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/12-gauge-ar-15-upper-machine-gun/

Some information on the work of Carroll Childers of the Naval Special Weapons Centre although I do not know whether he is the same person referred to in the link below

http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/major-general-carroll-d-childers-orly-taitz-lawsuit-obama-not-qualified-barack-obama-ineligible-major-general-childers-us-army-29th-infantry-division-obama-crime-associates/

Childers SOW (Special Operations Weapon)
Remington 7188

see http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/11/full-auto-shotgun/

He also designed the Childers-Dahlgren –a tripod mounted blow-forward automatic shotgun with a rate of fire of 200 RPM. Again there's almost nothing on this.

 

[proditto]

Mossberg also had an entry. It used belted alloy cased ammunition. The load anti personel load was multiple sized flechettes. The weapon was also able to fire the required flare round ( the only entrant to do so). For a semi-AP round a rocket powered PI round. The weapon had a recoil reduction system built in.

 

[Stingray]

http://stingraysrotorforum.activeboard.com/forum.spark#lastPostAnchor#comment-42379102


A modification to the M-16 tested in Vietnam. Flamethrower? Some kind of sensor?
Tried Google, but nothing related to this test came up.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Thats the E63 or XM-2 Personnel Detector Manpack one of the first electronic noses used to sniff out hidden enemies (in VietNam). Worked as described but couldn't tell apart human and animal smells... That's the best picture I've seen of this device. Thanks.

 

[Stingray]

No prob, and thank you for your answer. It has made searching easier, and along the way I found this.
It appears the device was mounted on a UH-1 as an airborne personnel detector as well.


http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/tactical/chapter7.htm

 

[Catch-22]

From what I have read these detected Amonia.

link from Wikipedia.
http://www.wood.army.mil/chmdsd/pdfs/Jan-June_2007/Kirby-Snoopy-Final.pdf

But even stranger research into using bed bugs and other insects for detection.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/837100.pdf

 

[Nik]

Is that the one that prompted the VK to organise mass thefts of scented soap ??

 

[patron_zero]

No intentional hijack intended but does anyone have any information about American ground forces in WWII having shotguns issued or utilized by any units ?

I'm fairly mystified that there was not a 'military-grade' shotgun issued in WWI for that matter as it would have been a perfect trench-sweeper if having no other application.

 

[TomS]

I'm confused by your comment about there not being shotguns issued in WW1. The US Army and Marines did in fact issue Winchester Model 1897 pump shotguns modified for military use (notably with bayonet fittings and a heat shield). It was considered very useful for trench work, especially because it lacked a trigger disconnector. With the trigger held back, it would fire every time the action was cycled, giving it a pretty awe-inspiring rate-of-fire. I do recall that they had to issue all-brass shot-shells because paper-hulled shot-shells were obviously pretty worthless in muddy trenches.

In WW2, US units in the Pacific definitely used shotguns for jungle fighting. Some were issued in Europe as well, mainly for military police and POW camp guards. I think the more common availability of submachineguns in WW2 made them less appealing, but there were a lot of M1897s again (some recycled from WW1, some new) as well as a fair number of Ithaca Model 37s and lesser numbers of many other civilian models. Many were modified similarly to the M1897 for military use.

 

[Brickmuppet]

During the invasion of Saipan the Marines were issued shotguns (Winchester '97s) except for snipers because of their low penetration. This was to minimize civilian casualties in the thin buildings on an island where there was nowhere for refugees to run.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The US Army and Marines did in fact issue Winchester Model 1897 pump shotguns modified for military use (notably with bayonet fittings and a heat shield).

Yup. These occasionally pop up at gun shows. Kinda pricy.

 

[pathology_doc]

A pity, because they'd be the perfect thing for people who like to go feral pig hunting in long scrub. When Porky gets too close for another shot, at least you can plant the bayonet in him and hope.

 

[Lauge]

A pity, because they'd be the perfect thing for people who like to go feral pig hunting in long scrub. When Porky gets too close for another shot, at least you can plant the bayonet in him and hope.

In which case I recommend a modern rendition of the same concept, the Mossberg 590A1 SPX:

Just the thing for keeping under the bed in case something goes "Bump" at 2 AM B)

Oh, and just my personal opinion: Don't knock the bayonet! Apart from turning your malfunctioning or out-of-ammo rifle or shotgun into an excellent "pointy stick" type close quarters weapon, the bayonet on it's own is also an excellent multi-purpose tool.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

 

[Mil-tech Bard]

Re: recoilless mortars and rifles

The US Army Ordnance Department was also developing 81mm and 60mm recoilless rifles at the end of WW2 on the same basis as the 4.2 inch recoilless mortar.

All three were being worked on by the Bud Webb (sp?) auto parts company.

The propellant for all three mortars was also used in the "Superbazooka" round the NDRC has developed for the 2.36 inch rocket launcher.

All of the above was dropped like a hot rock when the war ended.

In 1949 the improved 4.2 inch mortar was declared an infantry weapon after a shoot off between the WW2 4.2 inch chemical mortar (M2) the Ordnance 105mm and 155mm mortars and the improved 4.2 inch chemical mortar.

What later became the M27 106mm Recoilless rifle displaced the M4 Recoilless Mortar for infantry use as a direct fire weapon.

US Chemical Warfare Service developed special recoilless mortars during the world war II. This first weapon was tripod mounted 4.2-inch mortar.

http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/images/M4%204.2-RM-5.jpg

http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/images/M4%204.2-RM-1.jpg

Designer of this weapon seems to have been Dr. Clarence Hickman who also worked with Robert Goddard. I have also seen a reference to 60mm bipod mounted version.

"Recoilless weapons had been investigated by the American Army in WWI. In WWII the idea was revived by the Germans, the British and then by the Ordnance Department. When the CWS began development of a horizontal mortar, it realized that the principle involved in a recoilless gun might be applied and, in October 1943, Gen. Kabrich asked Dr. C. N. Hickman, chief of section H, division 3, NDRC, to undertake the development of a mortar having no recoil. That same month, the first recoilless attachment to fit on the breech of the standard mortar was designed and, in November, firing trials were started.

Step by step, the ignition system, firing mechanism, reaction chamber and shell were perfected. The shell was fired in the usual manner. A small rocket, called a rocket driver by the designers, was attached to the fuze. When the mortar was fired, the rocket driver hurled the shell back into the barrel where it struck the firing pin. The firing pin then detonated the propellant charge and started the shell forward. The rocket driver fell off while the shell was in the air, exposing the fuze."

http://www.4point2.org/mortar42.htm


But the most interesting weapon is described in this patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2515180

It seems to describe a shoulder fired recoilless infantry rifle and the designer is Maurice E. Barker of United States Army. I did some detective work concerning this person and i found this PDF:

http://www.cheg.uark.edu/academy/documents/BarkerMauriceEugene.pdf

Does anyone have any information about this weapon? Did it ever even evolve into a real thing?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

“Why does the US military use so many 40mm grenade launchers? Because they don’t have a 70mm grenade launcher.” *

The USN’s riverine and coastal force in the VietNam War required a range of lightweight suppressive fire weapons. 81mm breech loading mortars were re-rolled from the coast guard and new 40mm grenade launchers, the Mk 18 and Mk 19 were developed and fielded. By the late 60s operational experience had indicated even more high explosive firepower was needed. The Naval Ordnance Station Louisville lead by Col. George Chinn (author of the famous Machinegun series of books) developed a new 70mm automatic grenade launcher (AGL) concept based on scaling up the high and low pressure 40mm grenade. This new weapon could be used for suppressive fire and with a proposed dual purpose, penetrating round for anti-bunker fires.

The new grenade launcher was similar in concept to the Mk 19 and weighed in at 110 lbs (50 kg) and could fire at 350 rpm from belts or clips. The grenade fired had a muzzle velocity of 1,100 fps (335 ms) to an effective range of 4,000 yards (3.6 km). Colt also provided a design for a 70mm AGL that could use either cased or caseless 70mm grenades. The cancallation of the next generation riverine warfare boats and massive scalling down of the USN’s littoral warfare force saw development of this weapon ended.

Source: "The Machinegun: Volume V" by Col. George Chinn, USMC (Ret)

* Paraphrase of the common joke about .50 calibre and .100 calibre machineguns.

 

[CostasTT]

Kind of reminds me of the later AGS-57...
http://www.dogswar.ru/oryjeinaia-ekzotika/artilleriia/1896-perspektivnyi-stanko.html
http://www.spec-naz.org/forum/forum81/topic2851/

 

[Cutaway]

Also from Australia: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO1985005442A1.html

 

[Pelzig]

Spent and discarded fliegerfausts in the rubble of Berlin. The hotel image has at least three of them in the photograph. Proves that they did get into the hands of the last defenders of the Reich.

 

[Grzesio]

The Fliegerfaust in the 2nd picture is one of these three in front of the Hotel Adlon too, just seen from a different angle - the farthest one, barely visible behind a huge stone block.

 

[Pelzig]

So it is! I wondered if it was but now that you mention it, I do see it in the first image.

The Fliegerfaust in the 2nd picture is one of these three in front of the Hotel Adlon too, just seen from a different angle - the farthest one, barely visible behind a huge stone block.

 

[Grey Havoc]

A few links relating to the TRW Low Maintenance Rifle:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/trw-lmr-e.html
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/trw-low-maintenance-rifle/
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/low-maintenance-rifle-photos/

 

[Michel Van]

Advanced Combat Rifle 1990 US Army Search for M16 Replacement

like the name says in 1990 DoD look for ACR to replace the M16 in 1996.
For the ACR program, the contenders were:

Colt ACR – Basically an M16 firing a duplex cartridge !
Steyr ACR – A polymer-bodied bullpup rifle firing flechettes
AAI rifle – Advanced Armament Inc had participated in these programs all the way back to the 60s, and they entered a flechette-firing rifle as well
H&K G11 – A bullpup firing caseless ammunition with extremely fast 3-round burst capability

this youtube video explains this in more detail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVRyY5QH9Lo&feature=player_embedded

 

[Tony Williams]

The four ACR contenders plus the ammunition they used are described and illustrated in this article on my website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

 

[Pioneer]

Re: Firearms secret projects (Hand-Föhn)

Hi everybody

"Hand-Föhn" very similar to the "Luftfaust" only with 3 barrels of 73mm-caliber.
I have read about this project here
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/flugabwehrwaffen-R.htm

Is there anybody who has got a Picture or Drawing of it ?

Many greetings and thanks in advance

No luck yet with a drawing?This weapon you speak of, has me somewhat intrigued.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[lantinian]

The four ACR contenders plus the ammunition they used are described and illustrated in this article on my website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

Wow, you have an extremely informative and thorough website. Thank you so much for sharing. I've been meaning to find something like this to read for ever.
Again, I am amazed that you managed to suggest so many decades ago about the common round what the current research seams to indicate.

After reading several of your articles, I can't agree more with the conclusion at the end of this on on bullpups vs traditional desins
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/bullpups.htm

 

[Tony Williams]

Thanks for your message, I'm pleased you enjoy the site.

 

[tround]

frenchs also wanted a weapon similar to the OICW ,it was the PAPOP.
the 35mm semi auto grenade launcher would have propel a 200gr projectile with a velocity of 300ms.

 

[Graham1973]

A few links relating to the TRW Low Maintenance Rifle:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/trw-lmr-e.html
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/trw-low-maintenance-rifle/
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/low-maintenance-rifle-photos/

Interesting. I'm rather surprised that the US Army chose a company more associated with the Space Race and satellites to design firearms, that said it would appear to that TRW got the design right and I'm surprised that no enterprising small arms manufacturer has seen fit to revive the design.

Anyone tried an FOI request to see if more could be dug up about the decision making process behind this one?

 

[tround]

HK experiment.
It was a failure because the recoil momemtum is too high and the rate of fire is too low for a good burst accuracy (5 to 6 mils versus 15-20 mils).
the spoon tip bullet tumble rapidly in tissues but lose is velocity quickly.

 

[tround]

Interdynamic MKR assault rifle in 4.5mm.

 

[Pyrrhic victory]

AAI XM19
"Conventional" (debullpup'd) Springfield SPIW
T25, T36, T47, T48
Belt fed Johnson LMG

Springfield Armory National Historic Site Archival Records:
http://ww3.rediscov.com/springar/spring.htm

 

[Firefly 2]

Anyone remember the combination assault rifle/RPG modular weapon system on the Sharkit News site that was a DGR/East German project. Could never find any information about it.

I was reminded about this post when I came around this. I have no clue wether it was a real project. The wooden guards look ... a bit too old fashioned to me: http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/NIVA_XM1970

 

[Firefly 2]

Not quite the secret project, but very unknown to me: The Gerasimenko_VAG-73

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerasimenko_VAG-73

Fires caseless 7.62mm rounds from a 48 round magazine. Anybody have more info on the workings and ammo?

 

[shaba]

http://www.psj.ru/saver_people/detail.php?ID=75395
this should give you the information that you want

 

[Firefly 2]

Awesome, even with google translate that was absolutely awesome. Thnx!

 

[shaba]

Your welcome

 

[Cutaway]

SerLea SMG, 3000rpm: