A Hellfire would still be useful against a large enemy ship (unless it has good countermeasures) compared to an Alamo or a Mad fires (although they are always excellent weapon systems, but not against a type 052c or type 055).
 
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Does one seriously need to significantly modify a 7000+ ton ship to fit 'man portable' weapons?

The mods I was talking about would include the ability to fire 24 missiles without reloading, and integrate a fire control system with the shipboard combat system, so yeah, that's a bit more of a modification than bolting a tripod launcher on deck and hoping for the best. But I'm inclined to agree with bring_it_on that there are better ways to accomplish the purpose of FFG(X) without a permanent Hellfire launcher.

Depends. I was thinking something more like this (could substitue VLS Hellfire near term).

Capturezzz.PNG
 
That's not actually how the current Hellfire SSMM works. There isn't a Hellfire canister (which I only just realized today). SSMM actually uses a pair of enclosed boxes with it looks like 12 rails attached to the inner surface of each box. Each rail has a Helllfire attached, but the missiles are not encapsulated or separated from each other inside the larger box. Which helps explain how they put this together with so little development work. I suspect there are three pairs of M310 dual rail launchers just bolted to the inside of each box.

Check out the first few seconds of video here:
 
This wasn't an attempt to describe the system they tested. Just noodling with a configuration. That said, they could probably modify Hellfire for VLS that wouldn't require a rail.
 
This wasn't an attempt to describe the system they tested. Just noodling with a configuration. That said, they could probably modify Hellfire for VLS that wouldn't require a rail.

I know. I was thinking that this design is not compatible with Hellfire as fielded. It might be adaptable, using something like the Hellfire adapter they designed for ExLS. I'd definitely want to go retain the missiles at the top, though, to prevent them from whipping around in shock situations.
 
In April Flight Global writing on recent US Army demo of the Area-I ALTIUS UAV and the large/heavy NLOS variant of the Rafael Spike mentionened range of 17.3nm/32km whereas quoted the AGM-114 Hellfire as limited to 4.3nm.

Question whether Hellfire with such short range makes it a useful weapon system as the USN procuring the ALaMO round for the 57mm gun with a range of 10km/5.4nm.

PS US cancelled the XM501 Non-Line of Sight missile, NLOS, in 2010 after spending $1 billion, range ~40km.
 
Longbow Hellfire was chosen for LCS because it could be rapidly fielded and because there is an abundant stockpile of them for the Navy to draw from. Ultimately, they would prefer options that have longer range/loiter and address other limitations. But Longbow is about having something fast affordably.
 
Thx, but as a LCS has never been deployed in the Persian Gulf since the first ship was commissioned back in 2008 and you wonder why, may be in the future with Longbow fitted USN might feel confident enough that LCS will be more of an asset than a liability to operate in the Gulf, which you would have thought was its natuual habitat.
 
Thx, but as a LCS has never been deployed in the Persian Gulf since the first ship was commissioned back in 2008 and you wonder why, may be in the future with Longbow fitted USN might feel confident enough that LCS will be more of an asset than a liability to operate in the Gulf, which you would have thought was its natuual habitat.

There was a deployment pause with that class as they reset and primed the pump for future deployments, sorted out the development mess, upgraded ships and got their training up to speed while maturing the mission modules to a particular level (and putting them through adequate testing). The ships have now deployed in support of two theaters. It won't be long before you see them in Bahrain and rotating through there on a more permanent or semi-permanent basis. There are plenty of ships the USN sails through there that do not carry longbow hellfire missiles. In fact not a single one, to the best of knowledge, does.

Hellfire is not a traditional anti-ship missiles, it's use is in the littorals and in support of the C-FAC mission and for it the US Navy has completely the requisite testing and is reasonably satisfied with how it performs. Would they need a 30 nautical mile system? I'm not sure that such a weapon will be cost effective against the threat type especially given they can possibly pull hellfire out of other DOD surplus stocks.

Will a 15 nm Spike be better? Possibly but that would entail a completely new mission module and no one probably wants to go down that road given that not all currently funded modules are operational and because there are other pressing upgrade requirements that make more sense. Also, the Navy will be keen to see what propulsion upgrades the JAGM takes over the course of its life so they may get an acceptable range increase in time as that weapon goes through its natural development cycle and fields future variants.

How many light ships or corvettes in the region or outside carry something like the Helfire mission module? As an additional layer, these ships come equipped with a rotary winged component that can launch missiles so when transitioning, you can get an additional layer of protection against the threat type by deploying it. That gives you more sensor and weapon range. The entire LCS fleet will eventually carry 8 NSM's each and this includes those that are equipped with the surface warfare module so NSM, Alamo, and the Longbow helfire is what they'll eventually carry which should suffice for what is to be the smaller of the two SSC fleet ships. At least for the short-medium term as they use up rounds that are available to them.

Non surface warfare module ships will likely get a HEL and will still retain the Alamo, and NSMs. I think that would be fine given that the Navy would be aware of their limitations (they aren't large 7000+ ton frigates or destroyers) and would use them accordingly. I don't think we need to sink $$ into adding yet another surface warfare module on this ship. If anything, future $$ should concentrate on the type of mods that have been proposed, and those that the USN seems to be interested in funding - fleet wide NSM adoption, SEWIP light, High Energy Laser, decoys, and possibly a radar upgrade or replacement down the road to enable it to eventually utilize CEC and accommodate ESSM in the future (though Lockheed is implementing the same capability using existing radars on the Saudi combatants).

Instead of going granular and trying to completely overhaul and replace systems that have been barely fielded, the Navy would be better served by adding new systems that will be critical to future needs and those that will allow these ships to integrate better within the broader SSC architecture (that will most likely have 20 or more FFG(X)) and the broader fleet mix. The Navy seems to be happy with having its FFG(X) and DDG-51 Flight III's that are equipped with zero helfires, Spike or anything equivilant. So I think an LCS with a couple of dozen hellfire missiles would suffice. Especially given that the system works as opposed to something that may be promising on paper but needs to be integrated and then fully tested.

SNA 2020: Lockheed Martin Pitching JAGM For U.S. Navy LCS

 
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This army weapon program may come in handy for the navy.
 
This army weapon program may come in handy for the navy.

Been down this road before. The Navy bet the farm on the Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) Loitering Attack Munition (LAM)/Precision Attack Munition (PAM) combo, and the Army sold the farm right out from under them.

I would not expect the Navy to express interest in any US Army system that is not already funded and fielded.
 
This army weapon program may come in handy for the navy.

Been down this road before. The Navy bet the farm on the Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) Loitering Attack Munition (LAM)/Precision Attack Munition (PAM) combo, and the Army sold the farm right out from under them.

I would not expect the Navy to express interest in any US Army system that is not already funded and fielded.

It's pretty amazing that the US Army bought the Spike NLOS before the US Navy did.
 
This army weapon program may come in handy for the navy.

Been down this road before. The Navy bet the farm on the Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) Loitering Attack Munition (LAM)/Precision Attack Munition (PAM) combo, and the Army sold the farm right out from under them.

I would not expect the Navy to express interest in any US Army system that is not already funded and fielded.

It's pretty amazing that the US Army bought the Spike NLOS before the US Navy did.

The Navy is getting its LCS Hellfire rounds from Army stock. That, for now, is probably too good to pass up on. The Navy will probably migrate to a future increment of the JAGM once it is fielded by the Army.
 
This army weapon program may come in handy for the navy.
A congressional boondoggle for a particualar entity. enough said.
 
This army weapon program may come in handy for the navy.

Been down this road before. The Navy bet the farm on the Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) Loitering Attack Munition (LAM)/Precision Attack Munition (PAM) combo, and the Army sold the farm right out from under them.

I would not expect the Navy to express interest in any US Army system that is not already funded and fielded.

It's pretty amazing that the US Army bought the Spike NLOS before the US Navy did.

The Navy is getting its LCS Hellfire rounds from Army stock. That, for now, is probably too good to pass up on. The Navy will probably migrate to a future increment of the JAGM once it is fielded by the Army.
Volumn etc. is coveted on any combatant ship. If ALAMO/Madfires live up to expectation then HELLFIRE/JAGM would be very best used by NATO, especially frontline countries. The idea of wasting space on ships is not well thought out for those two reasons.. Another Gremlins like mistep.
 
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Does one seriously need to significantly modify a 7000+ ton ship to fit 'man portable' weapons?

Unlike the nice summer's day of the shoreside image (probably why he's grinning), a shipboard installation of a man-portable weapon needs to cope with a mounting that's pitching, rolling, yawing, and potentially being regularly inundated in corrosive salt-water, while permanently exposed to a moist, salt-laden atmosphere. It also needs to be verified that there aren't any unfortunate interactions with the emissions of the ships sensors (such as unexpectedly launching, or detonating). If you don't leave it permanently mounted, then you need to find magazine space for it, and face hauling it up several decks and clamping it down any time you need to use it, which had better not be at short notice. With a missile you also need to plot out which firing arcs have viable exhaust backblast areas, and those are limited on most parts of the ship, unless you want to compromise the firing arcs of other weapons by putting it on the bow, or operations of the ship's air component by putting it on the flightdeck.

Once you get past clamping a machine gun on a rail, you're dealing with a non-trivial problem.
 
Of course, if you really anticipate dueling FIAC, bring an ASuW LCS instead. Might as well use them.

Or just hang 20 Martlets on your shipboard helicopter. If you must engage FAC swarms with a short-range weapon, better to take the weapon to them than wait for them to come to you.
 
Of course, if you really anticipate dueling FIAC, bring an ASuW LCS instead. Might as well use them.

Or just hang 20 Martlets on your shipboard helicopter. If you must engage FAC swarms with a short-range weapon, better to take the weapon to them than wait for them to come to you.

USN's preference appears to be for APKWS laser-guided rockets on its helos (possibly including drones). Similar niche, but already in inventory.
 
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I think APKWS is already integrated with the MH-60 anyway. Certainly I've seen them carry seven round rocket pods, they they might have been unguided.
 
Yeah and I believe that the Indian Navy has also chosen to use APKWS on its MH-60 fleet. It is probably the best low cost solution for fleet wide, rapid C-FAC capability and is already operational with the Navy.
 
Of course, if you really anticipate dueling FIAC, bring an ASuW LCS instead. Might as well use them.

Or just hang 20 Martlets on your shipboard helicopter. If you must engage FAC swarms with a short-range weapon, better to take the weapon to them than wait for them to come to you.

Problem is you don't know they have bad intent and you can't just go blowing up speedboats because you think they MIGHT try something. That would be part of their strategy too. Make sure they're too close to get them all (with a gun or other series-limited weapon) before you know they're up to no good.
 
This wasn't an attempt to describe the system they tested. Just noodling with a configuration. That said, they could probably modify Hellfire for VLS that wouldn't require a rail.
That mod won't be really minor. At best it will be additional separatable booster with gas-dynamic steering engine.
 
Of course, if you really anticipate dueling FIAC, bring an ASuW LCS instead. Might as well use them.

Or just hang 20 Martlets on your shipboard helicopter. If you must engage FAC swarms with a short-range weapon, better to take the weapon to them than wait for them to come to you.

Problem is you don't know they have bad intent and you can't just go blowing up speedboats because you think they MIGHT try something. That would be part of their strategy too. Make sure they're too close to get them all (with a gun or other series-limited weapon) before you know they're up to no good.

Depends on the scenario. Something like the Battle of the Bubiyan Channel is weapons free, while harrassment in the Gulf is more difficult
 
Forbes reported May 28 Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps’ Navy (IRGC-N) announced that it had received 112 new fast attack boats, how effective unknown, but should not be dismissed. The January Iranian ballistic missile attack on US Iraqi air base at Ain Al-Asad demonstrated surprisingly high degree of technical competency, open source satellite pics indicated CEP accuracy of ~12 meters with their 12/15 missile attack with ~1 ton HE warheads.
 
Both the LCS and FFG might be excessive for dueling with FACs when a 200ton PKX-B would do....


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FACs with guns and rocket launchers seems strange unless the intent is boarding action. ATGMs sized missiles is an option for all but the smallest vehicles.
 
Both the LCS and FFG might be excessive for dueling with FACs when a 200ton PKX-B would do....


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FACs with guns and rocket launchers seems strange unless the intent is boarding action. ATGMs sized missiles is an option for all but the smallest vehicles.

Rocket launchers en mass would be no fun to be on the receiving end of. And neither Iran not North Korea has the budgets to equip swarms of boats with even out of date missiles.

As for the South Korean counter-FAC PKs, they may make sense for the ROKN, but they don't have enough flexibility or deployment capability for the USN.
 
This is how you do a frigate:
View attachment 636212

Sure, if you don't need decent habitability or growth margins. And you need to maximize the weapons on every ship because you only have a half dozen major combatants that can actually go to sea at any given time.

Given the USN has nearly 90 destroyers and cruisers, all of which exceed that frigate's armament, why do the FFGs also need to be overloaded the way Russian ships are?
 
I think it might be a bit of a stretch to call that ship a frigate in the USN sense of the word. It is heavily armed, but I suspect it would have problems in high sea states with that top heavy arrangement. For Russian purposes in the Black Sea and Baltic, that isn't a concern...the vessel fits their requirements perfectly.
 
I think it might be a bit of a stretch to call that ship a frigate in the USN sense of the word. It is heavily armed, but I suspect it would have problems in high sea states with that top heavy arrangement. For Russian purposes in the Black Sea and Baltic, that isn't a concern...the vessel fits their requirements perfectly.
This is a vessel by far not only for Black Sea and Baltics.
 
Indeed, it has apparently performed well in both the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.
 
This is how you do a frigate:
View attachment 636212

Sure, if you don't need decent habitability or growth margins. And you need to maximize the weapons on every ship because you only have a half dozen major combatants that can actually go to sea at any given time.

Given the USN has nearly 90 destroyers and cruisers, all of which exceed that frigate's armament, why do the FFGs also need to be overloaded the way Russian ships are?
So why have frigates at all then if you're not going to operate them independently?
 
So why have frigates at all then if you're not going to operate them independently?

You have frigates to provide certain capabilities for less money. Not having all the missiles of a Gorshkovs does not make a frigate incapable of independent operations, it just removes a couple of fairly narrow mission areas.

The Russians built the Gorshkovs to do almost everything, including strike warfare, likely because they really can't count on having more than a couple of ships at sea in any given theater.

The USN already has massive amounts of strike warfare capability at sea, between the VLS cells on dozens of CRUDES, the SSNs/SSGNs, and the carriers (plus the USAF bringing a level of strategic strike the Russians can't even hope to match).

So the FFG(X) can omit that strike capability to save money. If a commander have a specific assignment that requires strike, they use a DDG. If they need surface escort and/or ASW, they can send an FFG instead. And maybe they have two FFGs instead of one DDG because of the cost difference.
 
The Russians built the Gorshkovs to do almost everything, including strike warfare, likely because they really can't count on having more than a couple of ships at sea in any given theater.

We have FOUR non-interconnected theaters; Baltic, Black Sea, Arctic and Pacific.
 

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