TomS

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WWII DE names might be a good source. Ships from the Taffy force for stance.
What was the Taffy force, never heard of that one?
Short version: TAFFY 3 was one of three groups of escort carriers and their DD/DE escorts off Leyte in the Philippines in 1944. The Japanese launched a last-ditch effort to get at the US landing force invading the Philippines. Halsey's Third Fleet with all the fleet carriers was supposed to be covering, but was decoyed out of the way. What was left was three groups of escort carriers and their tin cans, a mix of DDs and DEs (plus some slow battleships in the bombardment force). TAA
FFY 3 was six CVEs, three DDs, and four DEs, up against 23 Japanese ships, inclulding 4 battleships and 6 heavy cruisers. TAFFY 3's escorts and aircraft made a series of nearly suicidal torpedo and gun attacks on the Japanese to cover the withdrawal of the escort carriers; their combined efforts actually sank multiple cruisers and convinced the Japanese commanders that they had run into a force of USN heavy cruisers at least. The Japanese turned away, but TAFFY 3 was nearly obliterated, with two carriers and three escorts sunk, others badly damaged, and over 1000 dead. But they kept the Japanese out of the invasion force, where they could have slaughtered tens of thousands of Marines on their transports.

 
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SSgtC

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WWII DE names might be a good source. Ships from the Taffy force for stance.
What was the Taffy force, never heard of that one?
Short version: TAFFY 3 was one of three groups of escort carriers and their DD/DE escorts off Leyte in the Philippines in 1944. The Japanese launched a last-ditch effort to get at the US landing force invading the Philippines. Halsey's Third Fleet with all the fleet carriers was supposed to be covering, but was decoyed out of the way. What was left was three groups of escort carriers and their tin cans, a mix of DDs and DEs (plus some slow battleships in the bombardment force). TAAFFY 3 was six CVEs, three DDs, and four DEs, up against 23 Japanese ships, inclulding 4 battleships and six heavy cruisers. TAFFY 3's escorts and aircraft made a series of nearly suicidal torpedo and gun attacks on the Japanese to cover the withdrawal of the escort carriers; their combined efforts actually sank multiple cruisers and convinced the Japanese commanders that they had run into a force of USN heavy cruisers at least. The Japanese turned away, but TAFFY 3 was nearly obliterated, with two carriers and three escorts sunk, others badly damaged, and over 1000 dead. But they kept the Japanese out of the invasion force, where they could have slaughtered tens of thousands of Marines on their transports.

That fight is one of the big reasons why CV-32 was renamed Leyte. Those ships and men fought their hearts out and gave every last ounce they had.
 

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WWII DE names might be a good source. Ships from the Taffy force for stance.
What was the Taffy force, never heard of that one?
See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

"Taffy 1," "Taffy 2," and "Taffy 3" were the sub-units of Task Group 77.4 at the Battle off Samar. Taffy 3 comprised 3 Fletcher class destroyers and 4 destroyer escorts with a total of about 23 5"/38 guns and a total of about 40 torpedoes. They quite literally charged a much more powerful Japanese force, which included at least one battleship, heavy and light cruisers, and destroyers.
 

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TomS

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From this link, the latest Fincantieri FFG(X) data sheet.
 

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bring_it_on

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This is a good podcast that covers the program and where the yard is at with its investments. Also discussed is the potential of a second yard to be brought along if and when they look to expand the class or accelerate deliveries.

 

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Slightly different angle (and not so good a render) but it shows off the NSM installation with 16 rounds.
 

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On frigate, Filling said the program formally kicked off before Congress passed the FY 2020 defense bill, so it wasn’t bound by the new requirements. Still, he said, the Navy had already been moving in a similar direction, and so the frigate development plan gives a glimpse of what’s to come for DDG(X).

One of the most important things the frigate program did was craft the capability development document at the Navy level instead of with the Joint Staff. This allowed the Navy to share detailed specifications with potential shipbuilders from the start, and as shipbuilders proposed ideas that could drive down cost or boost performance, the Navy on its own could update requirements in both the CDD and the specifications. Filling said the end result was a design that is affordable, producible and ensured the shipbuilder’s voice was captured in the process.

“Right now at the maneuvering and seakeeping basin out at Carderock there is a segmented frigate model running in the basin right now, running alongside several other surface ships, so it’s good to see a surface ship renaissance out there at Carderock,” he said.

Even though the Constellation-class (FFG-62) design is based off the FREMM multi-mission frigate operated by the French and Italian navies, the length and beam were increased to meet Navy specifications, so the altered hull will need to go through testing to ensure the new dimensions are effective on the high seas, Filling said.

Filling also said he and his counterparts at NAVSEA’s engineering directorate (SEA 05) were conducting formal Systems Engineering Technical Reviews (SETRs) on frigate components. Frigate contractor Fincantieri brought with it many of its original equipment manufacturers, but the Navy is still conducting a full detail design process to ensure that, as some components are moved to U.S.-based manufacturing plants or swapped for new American components, the systems still work well together in the final frigate design.

Because the frigate program started before the FY 2020 defense bill passed, it is not technically required to create a land-based engineering site – but Filling said the Navy is making plans right now to set one up at Naval Surface Warfare Center Philadelphia, where most of the other LBESs will be located.

“Maybe [we’re] a little bit behind where we’d like to be in the newly envisioned STA process, but we’re working fast to get that done,” he said of building an LBES to support the frigate program.
 

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Apparently Greek shipbuilding industry is being offered cooperation with the FFG(X) program, as well as a chance to build the hulls for three of four planned MMSCs. I suspect this is a plan to establish basically a lead-follow relationship between Marinette and Onex and prepare the Greek yard to build the MMSCs and then some FFG(X) for the Greek Navy in the future. (And I'll bet the European FREMM builders are thrilled about that idea...) I guess this could be part of the "Joint Strike Frigate' concept above, though it is basically a conventional shipbuilding-for-export co-production model, not some radical new idea.

Greek seems to have chosen the French Frigats in a €5b deal
 

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Timing is probably better for Greece, if nothing else. MMSC isn't a great fit for their needs and Belharra is probably available sooner than FFG(X). getting a couple of LaFayettes is definitely useful.

Do we know if the drawing with armament and so forth in the article is specific to the Greek examples?
 

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The shipbuilder also has an official render of the final configuration on its website -

 

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Rolls-Royce has received a contract for the first shipset to provide four mtu naval generator sets, each rated at 3000 kWe at 1800 rpm.
The generator sets are based on the mtu 20V 4000 M53B engine and provide a total power output of 12 MW for propulsion and on-board power supply.

 

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Navy estimates $24.7B price tag for new frigate buy; unit cost in destroyer territory

The Navy estimates the cost to develop and procure a fleet of 20 new guided-missile frigates is $24.7 billion, setting the average cost for each new FFG-62 Constellation-class warship at about $1.2 billion or slightly less than the current $1.3 billion price tag for DDG-51 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers
Can't read the article since it requires a subscription, but I'm guessing that the cost includes the development costs. Whereas the development costs of the Burke have long since been amortized and the cost now is almost entirely the actual cost to build them
 

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It's a bit unfair to compare a new design built a new yard, versus a known ship design being built at two yard simultaneously almost continuously since 1988. Now let's double the order and find a second yard, then we can compare prices!

 

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I thought the USN's FY2020 budget submission had estimated a cost of $850-950M for subsequent ships fairly recently?

In real terms there is actually not that much between a Burke and a Constellation, its physical size (length, beam, draught) is actually more or less identical so even ignoring pre-fabrication etc. material costs are not going to be widely different. It still has SPY-6, has an expensive suite of sonars and presumably modern quieting features that also cost money. Chopping the VLS silos and fitting a 57mm pop-gun is not going to save a massive amount of money.
You can't simply build a cheap frigate unless you put nothing in it (see Type 31 and all the £250M price tag that was never met and ended up with everything being fitted for but not with).

Even this price is only equal to around 10 F-35C's at LRIP-14 prices....
 

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I thought the USN's FY2020 budget submission had estimated a cost of $850-950M for subsequent ships fairly recently?

In real terms there is actually not that much between a Burke and a Constellation, its physical size (length, beam, draught) is actually more or less identical so even ignoring pre-fabrication etc. material costs are not going to be widely different. It still has SPY-6, has an expensive suite of sonars and presumably modern quieting features that also cost money. Chopping the VLS silos and fitting a 57mm pop-gun is not going to save a massive amount of money.
You can't simply build a cheap frigate unless you put nothing in it (see Type 31 and all the £250M price tag that was never met and ended up with everything being fitted for but not with).

Even this price is only equal to around 10 F-35C's at LRIP-14 prices....
Well, the Constellation only has one gas turbine to the Burke's four, and there's a big win in manning: 200 vs around 320.

I'd guess the gas trubine count will lead to less strain on the fleet train, and the lower headcount either more ships in operation or less personnel costs - take your pick.
 

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I'd guess the gas trubine count will lead to less strain on the fleet train, and the lower headcount either more ships in operation or less personnel costs - take your pick.
Or alternatively, you can have more ships to cover more missions. Or more ships to provide a proper rotation for maintenance and crew rest.
 

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Navy estimates $24.7B price tag for new frigate buy; unit cost in destroyer territory

The Navy estimates the cost to develop and procure a fleet of 20 new guided-missile frigates is $24.7 billion, setting the average cost for each new FFG-62 Constellation-class warship at about $1.2 billion or slightly less than the current $1.3 billion price tag for DDG-51 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers

In what universe does a Burke cost $1.3bn in 2021 dollars?

Exactly.
 

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I thought the Burke IIIs were north of 2 billion? But as someone else noted, the real savings will probably be expressed in terms of cost of manning and cost of fuel over the life of the ship, and I suspect those operating savings will be severe given the far more efficient cruising/slow speed and a manning level almost half that of the Burke.
 

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Random FFGX question: does this class dispense with PRARIE/MASKER? That has been on every USN escort for half a century I believe, but I’ve not heard of FFGX being equipped with it ever.
 

bring_it_on

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I thought the Burke IIIs were north of 2 billion? But as someone else noted, the real savings will probably be expressed in terms of cost of manning and cost of fuel over the life of the ship, and I suspect those operating savings will be severe given the far more efficient cruising/slow speed and a manning level almost half that of the Burke.

Yes, It's about $2 Billion or more for the Flight III's. LSC is probably going to be closer to $3 Billion so these Frigates at around $1-1.2 Billion are a more affordable way of building capacity and also frees up money for the LSC (we would have been buying the more expensive Flight III's if it wasn't for the FFG(X) because the LCS doesn't cut it). Now if they'll get going with picking a second yard and making sure that we are buying at least 4 a year before the end of the decade.
 

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Should have just gone ahead and named the next one President in the same release, even if it's "early" for that hull I don't think there would be excess complaints about those two names being together.
 

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