F-117 Developments ??

Greysleuth

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Dear All,
Were there ever any plans to trial the F-117 on carriers, or to develop a navalised version. Given that any deployment of F-117 would be widely reported on enthusiasts sites (open to all) the element of surprise would be somewhat diluted.
Your comments and observations appreciated.
Be lucky
David
 

flateric

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Goggle A/F-117X or F-117N
Images (c)
1). Lockheed Martin
2). from Ian Maddock collection
 

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CFE

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The F-117N (A/F-117X) drawings depict two different exhaust nozzle shapes. One resembles the exhausts on the B-2, while the other resembles the YF-23 exhausts. Any reason why Lockheed would switch? I assume that one nozzle type was for the F-117N and the other was for the A/F-117X.
 

aero-engineer

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I believe that in Crickmore's -117 book, US Navy evaluations in the early 1980s was mentioned when talking about the RAF pilots who flew the jet in the same time period.

aero-engineer
 

Empire

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Does anyone have information or pictures on the F-117 B model? This was the design that was in F-111 class but lost to the F-117 A model because the military thought the A model was a lower risk to take.
 

F-14D

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Empire said:
Does anyone have information or pictures on the F-117 B model? This was the design that was in F-111 class but lost to the F-117 A model because the military thought the A model was a lower risk to take.
There were at least four proposals that carried this designation, that I'm aware of. One was simply a second production run of F-117As, but with LPI radar, GPS and the ability to use HARM.

The second F-117B was proposed to have a larger weapons bay, reduced sweep on the wings and tail and all flying horizontal stabilizers. They were also shooting for a 40% increase in range. The third F-117B envisioned taking the changes proposed for the second version and adding afterburning to the F-117s, an undercarriage more like that of the F-15, an 8,8000 lb. payload and range would be further increased.

The fourth "F-117B" was a model proposed to Great Britain. It was also called the "F-117C", and a host of other names. In this case, the "B" stood for "British". I'm attaching an illustration of that model I got from somewhere I can't remember
 

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Empire

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I'm sorry F-14D you're right those are the F-117 B models. I was wrong in my terminology I'm looking for the Advanced Tactical Aircraft (ATA) B version before it became F-117. This is back in 1977 Lockheed was awarded a contract to look at two versions of their have blue prototype an A version which was a scaled up have blue and a B version F-111 size aircraft.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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F-14D rocks! ;D

I haven't seen that image since I was on the Truman. They had a copy of that book in the ship's library. I checked it out, Xeroxed that page and what do ya know? My stupid chief came by and tossed that copy in the shredder. I lost the copy i made after that. But it looks like I'm going to have it again one more time.
 
A

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frank said:
Isn't that where it is?

avatar said:
I am no mod but this topic would do nicely in postwar secret projects..
it was moved to where it is now. you saw it thence...


on a different note , was there ever a F-117 special ops transport model , like the one depicted in Executive Decision ?
 

F-14D

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Empire said:
I'm sorry F-14D you're right those are the F-117 B models. I was wrong in my terminology I'm looking for the Advanced Tactical Aircraft (ATA) B version before it became F-117. This is back in 1977 Lockheed was awarded a contract to look at two versions of their have blue prototype an A version which was a scaled up have blue and a B version F-111 size aircraft.
No one can ever get all these designations right. What were you expecting from the Gov't, clarity? That's against regulations! Heck! I'm still confused regarding the designation of AAAM...
 

F-14D

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XP67_Moonbat said:
F-14D rocks! ;D

I haven't seen that image since I was on the Truman. They had a copy of that book in the ship's library. I checked it out, Xeroxed that page and what do ya know? My stupid chief came by and tossed that copy in the shredder. I lost the copy i made after that. But it looks like I'm going to have it again one more time.
Remember these two from Lockheed?
 

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SOC

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XP67_Moonbat said:
I haven't seen that image since I was on the Truman. They had a copy of that book in the ship's library.
What book did that image come from?
 

flateric

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F-117N images were in Bill Sweetman's 'Lockheed Stealth', Tony Landis' 'F-117A Photo Scrapbook' (has also good factory drawings of one of the iterations), Jay Miller's 'Skunk Works' to name the few.
F-117C comes from Jon Lake's 'Jane's: How To Fly And Fight In The F-117 Stealth Fighter' from the At The Controls series
http://www.amazon.com/Janes-F-117-Stealth-Fighter-Controls/dp/0004721098
 

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fightingirish

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Another F-117B concept was a two seat F-117A with bubble canopy for training.
All operational F-117As are single seat aircraft. There was an proposal for an elevated cockpit two seat trainer, which was to use the wreckage of the first production aircraft. Since the aircraft flies so well, however, it was felt there was no need for a trainer.
This story reminds me very much of the SR-71B/C trainer conversion.
Like other conversions, I presume, this concept had less fuel or a smaller weapon bay due to more room for the second pilot. The canopy is not stealthy either, not even near the gold plated one on the F-22.
The quoted text and a side-view are published in "F-117 Stealth In Action" from Jim Goodall, Squadron/Signal Publications, Inc.,Carrollton, Texas, 1991.
 

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F-14D

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flateric said:
F-117N images were in Bill Sweetman's 'Lockheed Stealth', Tony Landis' 'F-117A Photo Scrapbook' (has also good factory drawings of one of the iterations), Jay Miller's 'Skunk Works' to name the few.
F-117C comes from Jon Lake's 'Jane's: How To Fly And Fight In The F-117 Stealth Fighter' from the At The Controls series
http://www.amazon.com/Janes-F-117-Stealth-Fighter-Controls/dp/0004721098
The black and white was from a series of drawings made by Lockheed for their proposals. It's good to know the ultimate source of the color ones I used, I've had those .jpgs for a while. Thanks.
 

sferrin

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avatar said:
on a different note , was there ever a F-117 special ops transport model , like the one depicted in Executive Decision ?
You're joking right? ;)
 

fightingirish

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Another thread about the F-117 developments, so maybe the mods can merged these two.






on a different note , was there ever a F-117 special ops transport model , like the one depicted in Executive Decision ?
The "F-117X Remora" was just pure fiction. ;D
 

XP67_Moonbat

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In the Truman's library, we had both the Jane's book and Jay Miller's Lockheed book. Our chaplain's department sure knew how to pick some good reads. :eek: Those were the day.
 

CFE

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Does anybody believe that F-117N (or related) would have been a smarter acquisition for the Navy than F-35? I suspect that it might take longer to develop than Lockheed claimed. While there's much fuselage commonality with the original F-117 (at least, everything forward of the exhausts,) it's largely a new aircraft. Whatever commonality existed with the F-117 would have the effect of burdening a new design with old technology, rather than leveraging an old design for a rapid development?
 

Empire

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I'm looking for information, pictures or drawings of the Advanced Tactical Aircraft (ATA) B version before it became F-117. This is back in 1977 Lockheed was awarded a contract to look at two versions of their Have Blue prototype an A version which was a scaled up Have Blue (AKA F-117) and a B version an F-111 sized Aircraft.
 

TomS

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I'm guessing that you've seen this site already, but just in case you haven't:

http://www.f-117a.com/ATA.html

Characteristics of ATA "A" and ATA "B" (February 1978)
ATA "A"ATA "B"
Mission radius400 n mile1000 n mile
Payload5000 lb7500 lb
TOGW43,000 lb90,000 lb
Length64 ft76 ft
Wingspan43 ft47 ft
Crew12
Number of engines22
Engine typeGE F404[br](nonafterburning variant)GE F101[br]("partially" afterburning)
Costx1.5x

That table is apparently based on data in the AIAA book Have Blue and the F-117A: Evolution of the "Stealth Fighter" by David C. Aronstein, Albert C. Piccirillo, which I don't have. Excerpts of that book are in Google Books, but most of the ATA Version A vs Version B discussion is in a section not released online.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rzXdGpkDa7YC

In my searches, I found some suggestions that this picture of the famous Senior Peg ATB design may actually be ATA Version B, but there's no evidence for that, IMO.
 

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SOC

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That pole model is the SENIOR PEG design. The ATA-B is what was previously believed to be SENIOR PEG, found here:

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/black_projects/senior_peg.html

The designs are similar, with SENIOR PEG being a scaled-up and refined ATA-B.

Also, the book by Aronstein and Piccirillo is absolutely fabulous. Definitely recommended to anyone interested in the F-117 program or low observable aircraft in general.
 

CFE

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Somewhat OT, but how did the confusion between "Senior Peg" and "ATA-B" arise? IIRC, the pics now identified as "ATA-B" were somehow acquired by Jim Goodall.
 

overscan

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SOC, I don't believe the Jim Goodall pic is "ATA-B".

ATA-A, ATA-B were two different sized but largely identical production configurations derived from Have Blue. ATA-A became F-117A. ATA-B would be a scaled-up F-117(ish) with two F-101 engines.

I would guess that the Jim Goodall pic represents an earlier revision of the Lockheed ATB, owing some family resemblance to the ATA-B perhaps.
 

Empire

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I found this image in Doug Richardson's Stealth Warplanes the edition published in 2001. Could this be the ATA-B version of the Have Blue design. The tail and engine exhaust look different than the F-117, the cockpit is one piece and it looks like the engine intake is under the plane.
 

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Sundog

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I found this image in Doug Richardson's Stealth Warplanes the edition published in 2001. Could this be the ATA-B version of the Have Blue design. The tail and engine exhaust look different than the F-117, the cockpit is one piece and it looks like the engine intake is under the plane.
Wasn't that one their "original" ATF design study, when the ATF program switched to become a "stealthy" replacement for the F-15?
 

flateric

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It was. http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2001.0.html
 

XP67_Moonbat

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I remember, not too long ago, there was talk of converting some F-117's into UCAVs. We all know they've since been retired. But I was curious if there was ever any published depictions of that concept.
 

flateric

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"At the same time (1986), NASA was also working with the Lockheed Skunk Works® to study the installation of lift
engines in the F-117, in order to identify the technologies needed to build a stealthy STOVL Strike Fighter (SSF).

In the fall of 1986, DARPA expanded the scope of the NASA studies when it awarded the Skunk Works® a 9-
month long exploratory study contract to see if we could devise a supersonic, stealthy SSF for the Marine Corps."

AIAA 2009-1650
Inventing the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Paul M. Bevilaqua
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Palmdale, California, 93599

Apparently this was NOT that F-117 modified for RCS tests with a hole in the center and dummy compressor to foolish our satellites...those who have Mailes/Miller F-117 book know what I'm talking about...
 

XP67_Moonbat

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That's just sad and infuriating all rolled into one! :mad: :'(
 

Clioman

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The conversion of F-117s into UCAVs apparently wasn't in the cards, but that doesn't mean there aren't other programs out there. From the FWIW Dept. here's a quote from the March 9, 2009 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology: "Bill Sweetman...says has has been assured that the U.S. is operating classified fast-jet [UCAVs]. He was also told by a U.S. Air Force official that UCAVs and directed-energy weapons are in the same office at Air Combat Command, and that 'there was a reason' for that juxtaposition."

So, at least SOMEBODY is minding the store, if Sweetman is to be trusted.
 

flateric

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Hmm, March 9? What page exactly?
 

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Matej said:
The latest "development" :(((((
...Yeah, I posted about this on OMBlog when the images first came out. Whenever magificent flying machines are destroyed like this because the Air Farce makes a whimsical decision, it's a crime against the spirit of aviation.
 

donnage99

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OM said:
Matej said:
The latest "development" :(((((
...Yeah, I posted about this on OMBlog when the images first came out. Whenever magificent flying machines are destroyed like this because the Air Farce makes a whimsical decision, it's a crime against the spirit of aviation.
The destruction is an excercise to find the best way of scrapping an f-117.
 

OM

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donnage99 said:
OM said:
Matej said:
The latest "development" :(((((
...Yeah, I posted about this on OMBlog when the images first came out. Whenever magificent flying machines are destroyed like this because the Air Farce makes a whimsical decision, it's a crime against the spirit of aviation.
The destruction is an excercise to find the best way of scrapping an f-117.
...Mox nix. Scrapping them is still a crime in my book. About as bad as grounding the SR-71 fleet.
 
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