3000t is a BIG corvette. That's the same size as a Type 21 Frigate and much bigger than a Leander.

Of course there's been a lot of growth in warship size since Type 21 was introduced, even more so for Leander, but that's still a big corvette!
 
Indeed that is a very heavy tonnage for a corvette, but if we call a 14.000ton ship a destroyer then I could see an 1500ton missile boat as well...
(Though I've seen a site that classified Zumwalt as a Cruiser rather a Destroyer)
 
Just look at what happened with the Israeli Sa'ar series of fast attack craft, the most recent classes in that series are Sa'ar 5 (1200 tonne corvettes), Sa'ar 6 (1900 tonne corvettes), which is quite a growth when you realize that the Sa'ar 1 series only weighed only around 220 tonnes.
 
I agree that 3000 tons seems to be large for a Corvette, but I agree with the maxim steel is cheap air is free. Look at the River class OPV, it would not have cost much more to build a more capable ship - Bofors 57mm or an OTO 76mm and a hangar for the helo, provision for SSM and SAM. I personally regard the Rivers to be to cheap for us to afford.
 
Finland is working on a series of 3900 ton ships - and calling them Corvettes.

"Flotilla admiral Jori Harju (Commander of the Finnish Navy) noted that one of the reasons leading to the increased displacement is the additional strengthening of the hull, propulsion shaft lines and propellers required for year-round operation in the seasonally freezing Finnish territorial waters. He also pointed out that the Pohjanmaa class is intended to operate primarily in coastal waters whereas frigates are traditionally considered as the smallest class of warships operating in the high seas as part of a so-called blue-water navy."

 
I agree that 3000 tons seems to be large for a Corvette, but I agree with the maxim steel is cheap air is free. Look at the River class OPV, it would not have cost much more to build a more capable ship - Bofors 57mm or an OTO 76mm and a hangar for the helo, provision for SSM and SAM. I personally regard the Rivers to be to cheap for us to afford.
They considered fitting an OTO 76mm to the Castle class. The gun would cost more than the rest of the ship combined.

The Norwegian Jan Mayen class displace around 9800 tons, whilst China has a pair of 12000 ton Coast Guard Cutters. 3000 tons may end up being the lower end of the scale for ships performing OPV duties.
 
Looks very similar to the Mexican 107.5 m Damen Sigma 10514 LROPV, full write up below on the EPC, shows first ship IOC mid 2027

 

Attachments

  • EPC 200325.png
    EPC 200325.png
    78.4 KB · Views: 518
I agree that 3000 tons seems to be large for a Corvette, but I agree with the maxim steel is cheap air is free. Look at the River class OPV, it would not have cost much more to build a more capable ship - Bofors 57mm or an OTO 76mm and a hangar for the helo, provision for SSM and SAM. I personally regard the Rivers to be to cheap for us to afford.
They considered fitting an OTO 76mm to the Castle class. The gun would cost more than the rest of the ship combined.

The Norwegian Jan Mayen class displace around 9800 tons, whilst China has a pair of 12000 ton Coast Guard Cutters. 3000 tons may end up being the lower end of the scale for ships performing OPV duties.
One of the original proposal for the Castles was a mount based on a L7 tank gun, the original mount was very simple but was considered to be accurate and suitable for the role, but then they started to improve it, planned it to be stabilized and give it power loading which drove the cost through the roof!!
 
France unlike the UK relied on a very hi and very lo mix of George Leygues and A69avisos in the Cold War. The UK after the T21 experiment went back to a single class in the T23.
Now the UK and France seem to have agreed that numbers require a mix. Italy has always had a mix.
 
From back in 2020:
1626898902074.png
ORIGINAL CAPTION: Sketches of Naval Group’s Ocean Avenger concept ship in corvette configuration. This design could theoretically serve as base for the EPC.

 
From back in 2020:
Eurgh! That's terrible! It looks like a Zumwalt that was kicked in the face!

On a more serious note, could it be that the concept of a corvette is moving closer to what an LCS is? Apart from that, new systems, roles and uses for these ships, as well as new weapons mean that they have to get larger to cope.

Below are renderings of what the corvette is supposed to look like.
 

Attachments

  • EPC slide.png
    EPC slide.png
    236.2 KB · Views: 226
  • EPC.jpg
    EPC.jpg
    249.9 KB · Views: 233
  • EPC-possible-configuration.png
    EPC-possible-configuration.png
    279.7 KB · Views: 329
Last edited:
On a more serious note, could it be that the concept of a frigate is moving closer to what an LCS is?
Doubtful, given just how badly the concept in general has been discredited. Though that ended up being quite different from its 'Streetfighter' origins I should note in passing.
 
It is worth highlighting that the Italian MoD's DPP 2021-2023 the EPC is mentioned, though oddly it is simply described an OPV. Funding for the new class of eight OPVs (PPX/EPC) will open in 2023 with €2.8M followed by €12.2M from '24 to '26. Bulk of the funding will fall from 2027 to 2035 (€1.49bn). Estimated total requirement is €3.5bn.

The role of these OPVs is described as filling the role of presence and surveillance, fisheries supervision, control of merchant traffic, protection of Sea Lines of Communication of the nation, and of the nation's EEZ.

Somewhat older references by now, but European Defense Review also has a series of good articles on the EPC designs and what the participating nations want out of them;

Main Article
 
Here are 2 recent pictures of the EPC/MMPC from Euronaval.


A couple of interesting details:

- 2 hull lengths: The “long range” hull for the French and Spanish navies is lengthened in 2 places (+3-4m amidships between the funnels and the RHIBs, and +5-6m behind the secondary gun mounts)

- Modular spaces: Access panels to store 4 containers under the flight deck + 2 containers amidships between the RHIBs with access through the helicopter hangar

- Armament: 57mm or 76mm main gun, 8x anti-ship missiles, 8 VLS (expandable to 16 VLS), 2x 20mm or 30mm cannons (Narwhal or Marlin).

- 3 mast structures: French pyramid-style integrated mast (which puts the ESM antennas and IR sensors high up for increased passive detection horizon) vs. Italian separate radar & ESM masts which puts the radar high up. There is a 3rd option (for the Greek variant?) with a more traditional mast with rotating NS100 style radar

- Stern door for a RHIB ramp or a towed sonar

- No decoy launchers, with not a lot of free deck space available on the basic version to fit them... this will need to be fixed
 

Attachments

  • 4593AB50-46D7-48CD-9564-268880E5DB3B.png
    4593AB50-46D7-48CD-9564-268880E5DB3B.png
    1 MB · Views: 212
  • 06975175-7874-41ED-8256-0B72403EF2EF.png
    06975175-7874-41ED-8256-0B72403EF2EF.png
    1 MB · Views: 251
Last edited:
Here are 2 recent pictures of the EPC/MMPC from Euronaval.


A couple of interesting details:

- 2 hull lengths: The “long range” hull for the French and Spanish navies is lengthened in 2 places (+3-4m amidships between the funnels and the RHIBs, and +5-6m behind the secondary gun mounts)

- Modular spaces: Access panels to store 4 containers under the flight deck + 2 containers amidships between the RHIBs with access through the helicopter hangar

- Armament: 57mm or 76mm main gun, 8x anti-ship missiles, 8 VLS (expandable to 16 VLS), 2x 20mm or 30mm cannons (Narwhal or Marlin).

- 3 mast structures: French pyramid-style integrated mast (which puts the ESM antennas and IR sensors high up for increased passive detection horizon) vs. Italian separate radar & ESM masts which puts the radar high up. There is a 3rd option (for the Greek variant?) with a more traditional mast with rotating NS100 style radar

- Stern door for a RHIB ramp or a towed sonar

- No decoy launchers, with not a lot of free deck space available on the basic version to fit them... this will need to be fixed
Honestly it's a solid ship for the Greek navy's needs (and budget). Reportedly the total cost of the gowind 2800 and fcx 30 designs comes close to 700 million euros and Greece is in need of a good number of new ships right now. Although indifferent at first the Greek navy has doubled down on participation in the design in the hopes of the epc being cheaper and more closely aligned with their needs. Greek here.
 
Honestly it's a solid ship for the Greek navy's needs (and budget). Reportedly the total cost of the gowind 2800 and fcx 30 designs comes close to 700 million euros and Greece is in need of a good number of new ships right now. Although indifferent at first the Greek navy has doubled down on participation in the design in the hopes of the epc being cheaper and more closely aligned with their needs. Greek here.
is a 2022 article.
 
Here are 2 recent pictures of the EPC/MMPC from Euronaval.


A couple of interesting details:

- 2 hull lengths: The “long range” hull for the French and Spanish navies is lengthened in 2 places (+3-4m amidships between the funnels and the RHIBs, and +5-6m behind the secondary gun mounts)

- Modular spaces: Access panels to store 4 containers under the flight deck + 2 containers amidships between the RHIBs with access through the helicopter hangar

- Armament: 57mm or 76mm main gun, 8x anti-ship missiles, 8 VLS (expandable to 16 VLS), 2x 20mm or 30mm cannons (Narwhal or Marlin).

- 3 mast structures: French pyramid-style integrated mast (which puts the ESM antennas and IR sensors high up for increased passive detection horizon) vs. Italian separate radar & ESM masts which puts the radar high up. There is a 3rd option (for the Greek variant?) with a more traditional mast with rotating NS100 style radar

- Stern door for a RHIB ramp or a towed sonar

- No decoy launchers, with not a lot of free deck space available on the basic version to fit them... this will need to be fixed
Honestly it's a solid ship for the Greek navy's needs (and budget). Reportedly the cost of the gowind 2800 and fcx 30 designs comes close to 700 million euros and Greece is in need of a good number of new ships right now. Although indifferent at first the Greek navy has doubled down on participation in the design in the hopes of the epc being cheaper and more closely aligned with their needs. Greek here.
is a 2022 article.
I'm late, I know.
 
Missed this...are the French going to ditch EPC and just buy 6 Gowind?


It seems to be entirely based on an interview with Naval Group, which obviously has a preference.
 
It seems to be entirely based on an interview with Naval Group, which obviously has a preference.
The video interview seems pretty unambiguous that the French MoD has officially selected a Gowind design to replace the Floreals (at t=4m15s)

Q. “The French navy is also looking at this design to replace its Floreal class frigates based overseas?”
A. “Yes exactly. We started discussions last year with the DGA and the French Navy for the replacement of this ship class, and they have selected the Gowind design as the potential replacement”


View: https://youtu.be/J9PcmpWohoc?feature=shared
 
I think the word "potential" may be doing a lot of heavy lifting there. In other words, I am sure the French govt is talking with Naval Group to see what pricing, etc they can get, but the selection will depend on getting to acceptable terms and EPC remains an alternative, if only to put pressure on NG.
 
EPC remains an alternative, if only to put pressure on NG.
According to MeretMarine, who are usually well informed, there may not be a common EPC design. Instead, the European Defense Fund is paying mainly for “technological bricks” that can be integrated on various national designs, with some design work on a common core.

Which sounds much like how the FREMM program was run, leading to very different ships, despite the hull having some things in common, leading to tiny cost savings.

EPC aims to generate a class of ships adaptable to different national needs through the cooperative development of technological bricks that can be integrated into platforms that will adopt a common core. However, this does not mean that future corvettes, for example French and Italian, will necessarily resemble each other, which will probably not be the case. The European Commission itself wants MMPC to be available in at least two versions. It is in fact likely that this project will result, on the Italian side, in an evolution of the Doha class corvettes and, on the French side, in a new version of the Gowind. No design of the EPC has yet been developed, explains a source close to the case to Mer et Marine. "There is no design yet. All the images of EPC that are circulating do not correspond to anything, they were simply created by certain partners of the project to have something to show".

Regarding these building blocks, the Naviris and Navantia EPC project will focus in particular on reducing the environmental footprint and optimizing energy, multiplier effects including the deployment of drones, flexible zones capable of integrating interchangeable modules, and the use of cloud data. "Call 1 will allow us to develop the technological building blocks and lay the first design foundations for this new class of highly modular, multi-mission ships that must be embodied in several variants in order to meet the needs of each nation."

MMPC includes a second stage, Call 2, which is the subject of a new call for projects. Manufacturers only have a few days left to submit their copy since the deadline for submitting applications is set for November 22, 2023. This next phase should allow the development of the technological building blocks to be completed and, above all, the design of the different versions to be refined. Call 2 will be accompanied by a European subsidy of 154.5 million euros, conditional as for Call 1 on a financial contribution from the participating countries, which will be equivalent to that of the EDF. And, above all, on a commitment from each State to construct ships. The manufacturers leading the EPC project are obviously candidates, but the call for projects is open to other consortia, even if they were not selected for Call 1. It would therefore seem that a Scandinavian proposal is in preparation. Naviris, Navantia and their partners hope in any case to be selected during 2024 with a view to notification of the contract relating to Call 2 at the end of 2025, so as to take over directly from Call 1. This second phase should last four years, which would take the project until the end of 2029.

For France, the timetable as currently planned coincides well with the deadlines set for the six offshore corvettes (CH) that will succeed the surveillance frigates. Included in the military programming law (LPM) 2024-2030, this program should see the new vessels delivered between 2030 and 2035. This therefore suggests a notification at the end of 2025, in order to use the work of Call 1 as a basis and then integrate into the CH development studies those carried out within the framework of Call 2. And, depending on the building blocks selected, to gradually implement them on the platforms. This, while Naval Group is modernizing the industrial tool of its Lorient shipyard in order to be able to produce corvettes in less than 30 months. Which means, for a delivery of the lead ship in 2030, a start of construction hoped for in 2027, knowing that the studies are still continuing during the construction phase
 
Last edited:
The Marine Nationale looking at the Gowind may also reflect timetable concerns, too.

The EPC/MMPC program seems to be taking longer to develop than the navies involved had originally hoped. Within Italy, for example, as late as April 2022 the Marina Militare's intent was to get the first EPC in service in 2027 and deliver the eighth, final ship in 2034.

Now it seems that they will not receive a prototype ship until the end of the decade, which is simply too long to wait for some of the OPVs that need replacement. This was the impetus behind the PPX*, the first of which will be delivered in 2027 (they had actually wanted it as early as 2026, but it seems it took longer to get to contract than hoped), as a light OPV to take over patrol tasks from the Cassiopea-class. The initial program has been for three ships with three on option, with one of those options being taken up at the start of this month.

At this point in time it is not clear whether these PPX will come at the expense of the MMPC (i.e. 4+4) or if they are only supplementals (4 + 8). The 2019-34 strategic guidelines established a force of fifteen OPVs - seven medium (PPA) and eight light (EPC) - but arguably those guidelines are already outdated given procurement beyond those guidelines in the last two years (+2x FFG, +2 SSK, +1 LSS) and the upgrades to the PPA's.

If the MN has similar concerns about when they need to replace the Floréal-class, then it's entirely possible they simply go in their own direction.

*As it happens, 'PPX' was the original name of what became the EPC/MMPC program, prior to 2018 when it was a purely Italian program.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom