• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

European future space transport systems

Riverghost

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
I was at a workshop a couple of weeks ago looking at the development of ESA over the decade and beyond.... i can tell you there was no mention of a homegrown human rated launch system.... even the commercial figures for the Ariane 6 looked only JUST cost comparative with SpaceX as they stand now.

ESA has in my opinion become too heavily convoluted as a governmental /political tool for developing high technology industries within various member countries, and not for actually pushing out as a strong player within the space field. The general consensus was 'we wont develop anything radical unless its already been neatly made for us already, and will not get used otherwise' - Hence the collaboration with Sierra Nevada after they lost out to SpaceX and Boeing.

Oh and hi everyone :)

Riverghost.
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
8,970
Reaction score
174

fredymac

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
1,423
Reaction score
59
Looks like Ariane is sticking with disposable rockets regardless of Spacex.

http://spaceflightnow.com/2016/08/13/ariane-6-rocket-holding-to-schedule-for-2020-maiden-flight/

“The design configuration is frozen, and 12 months from now, we will have started the production of some parts of the launcher, at least for ground testing,” Charmeau said.

Airbus Safran Launchers is sticking with a throwaway design for the Ariane 6, and Charmeau said the company will take cues from its customers, not competitors like SpaceX.

“We believe what the customers are expecting is not a reused launcher,” he said. “I am convinced they would prefer to buy a new launcher than a second-hand launcher, but they want to reduce the cost. We are working intensely on cost reduction.”

Airbus Safran Launchers argues that the Ariane 6 will be less expensive than the Falcon 9’s current prices on a cost-per-kilogram basis, and many European officials, while impressed by SpaceX’s rocket landing achievements, are unconvinced the successful introduction of a reusable booster will lead to significant cost reductions on the orders-of-magnitude scale predicted by SpaceX founder Elon Musk
 

dark sidius

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
364
Reaction score
0
Completly false Space x will win the launcher war, European are still the head in the past century.
 

fredymac

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
1,423
Reaction score
59
dark sidius said:
Completly false Space x will win the launcher war, European are still the head in the past century.
I’m not quite sure how to read this.
Either
Completely false. Spacex will win the launcher war. Europeans were ahead in the past century.
Or (I'm guessing this one)
Completely false that Spacex will win the launcher war. Europeans have been ahead since the past century.

In any event, the article was simply reporting the strategy chosen by Ariane and didn’t say anything about who would win the sales race. My own 2 cents is that re-usability is critical to achieving significant cost reductions. Rocket engines and highly engineered tank structures are never going to be cheap. Other than precision guided munitions, where is there an example of using expensive and sophisticated machinery just once and then tossing it away? Ariane is gambling that an unforeseen complication will prevent Spacex from re-using their boosters (unlike Blue Origin which is already doing so). That's not entirely unreasonable but it isn't very inspiring.
 

blackstar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,682
Reaction score
12
fredymac said:
Ariane is gambling that an unforeseen complication will prevent Spacex from re-using their boosters (unlike Blue Origin which is already doing so). That's not entirely unreasonable but it isn't very inspiring.
"unforeseen complication" could be that refurbishment costs too much to be economical. Or that they blow one up and scare away their customers for several years.

Both those complications have happened in the rocket business before.
 

Flyaway

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
2,116
Reaction score
239
This seems relevant here.

Top VSSC officers and Paris-based ArianeGroup on Saturday met at VSSC, Thumba, and held discussions to identify areas for possible collaboration.

VSSC director K Sivan, who called his meeting with Marc Vales, head, Future Programmes, ArianeGroup, a ‘’brainstorming session’’, said a couple of possible areas for collaboration were explored, including the Reusable Launch Vehicle (RLV) programme. ‘’Our RLV programme is in its preliminary stages. They too have a similar one. It will be of use for both groups,’’ he said. Vales was here for the two-day ASET 2017 international conference organised by the Aeronautical Society of India (AeSI).

Among other things, ISRO also has shown interest in the ESA’s planned Prometheus rocket engine which uses methane as propellant along with liquid oxygen (LOX). Sivan attributed ISRO’s interest to the reusability potential of the engine.
Full article: http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/2017/sep/25/isro-hold-talks-with-arianegroup-1662207.html
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
23,767
Reaction score
812
From Icare 1962,

the SNECMA Satellite.
 

Attachments

Michel Van

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
68
Can some one move Hesham post to "Early european rocketry projects" ?
thanks
 

martinbayer

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
558
Reaction score
61
Can some one move Hesham post to "Early european rocketry projects" ?
thanks
Hello Michel,

I think that as a satellite project it doesn't even belong there - as a nuclear orbital system, perhaps it should be its own category?

Martin
 
Top