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Eurocopter HTH

TinWing

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overscan said:
Current project for a Heavy Transport Helicopter

Source:

Aviation International News July 17 (Farnborough)
I've been waiting years for a 3-view drawing. Overscan, thank you.

Incidentally, do you have a high res version of the 3-view?
 

overscan

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Unfortunately its a tiny diagram (a few cm across) and thats the best I can do with it.
 

TinWing

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overscan said:
Unfortunately its a tiny diagram (a few cm across) and thats the best I can do with it.
Oh well, the diagram is more than clear enough.

It is also clear that the HTH would have to be funded primarily - or perhaps solely - by Germany.
 

Antonio

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It is the Eurocopter HTH

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/03/21/205507/franco-german-joint-request-bolsters-eurocopters-hopes-for-a-new-heavylift.html
 

yasotay

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pometablava said:
It is the Eurocopter HTH

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/03/21/205507/franco-german-joint-request-bolsters-eurocopters-hopes-for-a-new-heavylift.html
Do not be surprised if you see Eurocopter teaming with Sikorsky on the CH-53K program.
 

Apophenia

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yasotay said:
pometablava said:
It is the Eurocopter HTH

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/03/21/205507/franco-german-joint-request-bolsters-eurocopters-hopes-for-a-new-heavylift.html
Do not be surprised if you see Eurocopter teaming with Sikorsky on the CH-53K program.
I can't find the reference but I thought I remembered reading that the timing for the CH-53K was too late for the Europeans. There was a suggestion that Eurocopter was leaning towards cooperating with the Russians.

Considering the history of EuroMil, Russian cooperation seems unlikely. But maybe the Russians can get over the Mi-38 and reinvent the heavy-lift Mi-46 project with Euocopter's help? I can't think of any other way of starting an HLH project that would bear fruit quicker than the CH-53K.
 

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Just uncovered these from a 2002 presentation by Sikorsky - a derivative of the CH-53E to meet the European HTH requirement. Talks continue, so there is probably an updated concept based on the CH-53K.
 

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yasotay

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Well it will be interesting to see if this does carry on. I had heard (unsubstantiated) claims that the HTH program was falling out of favor in France and Germany. I suspect that the Germans at least will eventually have to replace their CH-53, since their OPTEMPO has increased dramatically. Without a new program it will be Mi-26, CH-53K with CH-47F and EH-101 as lesser options.
 

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IIRC there once were talks of a coperation between Eurocopter and Sikorsky ?
In 2004 for I've got some photos from boxkite of the models shown on the ILA '04
and made a 3-view for Vertiflite.
 

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Yes, I have also information that France and Germany refused to develop all-new design because of the costs and they want to modify some of the existing machines. If I find the link once again, I will put it here.

yasotay said:
Well it will be interesting to see if this does carry on. I had heard (unsubstantiated) claims that the HTH program was falling out of favor in France and Germany. I suspect that the Germans at least will eventually have to replace their CH-53, since their OPTEMPO has increased dramatically. Without a new program it will be Mi-26, CH-53K with CH-47F and EH-101 as lesser options.
 

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My best educated guess is that HTH is most likely to be a CH-53K with a new fuselage (it if ever happens). This allows Europe to piggy-back off a hot production line and get a state of the art helicopter, unlike the CH-53E.

It actually works well for everybody. The only bit of the CH-53K that isn't actually new is the fuselage. By leaving that in place the Marines can continue to fool Congress into thinking it's a derivative, which has allowed them to avoid a competition. The Marines don't particularly care, because they mostly use the Echo as an external-load hauler anyway.

But the small cabin is a disadvantage for exports. The CH-35K could really use a bigger cabin to take advantage of its payload (and it would be bigger than the CH-47 cabin) and this way Sikorsky gets the Europeans to pay for it, and can sell it as a worldwide JV.
 

yasotay

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LowObservable said:
My best educated guess is that HTH is most likely to be a CH-53K with a new fuselage (it if ever happens). This allows Europe to piggy-back off a hot production line and get a state of the art helicopter, unlike the CH-53E.

It actually works well for everybody. The only bit of the CH-53K that isn't actually new is the fuselage. By leaving that in place the Marines can continue to fool Congress into thinking it's a derivative, which has allowed them to avoid a competition. The Marines don't particularly care, because they mostly use the Echo as an external-load hauler anyway.

But the small cabin is a disadvantage for exports. The CH-35K could really use a bigger cabin to take advantage of its payload (and it would be bigger than the CH-47 cabin) and this way Sikorsky gets the Europeans to pay for it, and can sell it as a worldwide JV.
While Sikorsky has always had "good" relations with the Russian rotorcraft industry, they are I think, the last US company to partner globally. Boeing and Bell seem to have established good global partner networks. Sikorsky has bought into the Polish rotorcraft industry, but I am not sure they have fully partnered to the same extent.
 

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LowObservable said:
The only bit of the CH-53K that isn't actually new is the fuselage
The K's fuselage is also new (wider, different internals). About the only thing common between the E and the K will be the dataplate.

If HTH does happen it will be a K derivative. Those folks still talking about a Mi-26 buy are misreading Fr/Ge AOA research of the type as commercial interest. The DoD undertook a similar Mi-26 assessment in support of FTR (JTR/AMT/JHL).
 

LowObservable

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Right you are - forgot that. 30 cm wider.
Draft German specifications call for a cabin high enough to accommodate the 2.5 m high Krauss-Maffei Dingo mine-protected vehicle, and long enough for the 6.9 m-long BAE Systems Hagglunds Bv206S all-terrain vehicle, with enough extra space to accommodate the vehicle crew in crashworthy seats.
 

airman

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CammNut said:
Just uncovered these from a 2002 presentation by Sikorsky - a derivative of the CH-53E to meet the European HTH requirement. Talks continue, so there is probably an updated concept based on the CH-53K.
Infact Eurocopter HTH remember me just the CH-53 ! :D
 

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Eurocopter Heavy Transport Helicopter (HTH)

From Flug Review:

Type
Heavy transport helicopter (schwerer Transporthubschrauber)

Country (Land)
Germany

Manufacturer (Hersteller)
Eurocopter Deutschland
Postfach 801140
81663 München
Germany

General (Allgemeine Angaben)
Crew (Besatzung): 2
Passengers (Passagiere): 66 combat equipped soldiers

Power plant (Antrieb): 3 x turboshafts
Power (Leistung): 3 x 5000 kW

Dimensions (Abmessungen)
Cabin length (Kabinenlänge): 12 m
Cabin width (Kabinenbreite): 2,5 to 3,2 m
Cabin height (Kabinenhöhe): 2,5 to 3 m

Weights (Massen)
Payload (Nutzlast): around 10 to 13 tons
Max. take-off weight (Max. Startmasse): around 36 tons

Performance (Flugleistungen)
Top speed (Höchstgeschwindigkeit): 300 km/h
Hover in ground effect (Schwebeflug im Bodeneffekt): 2000 m at ISA + 20 deg C
Mission range (Reichweite): 1000 to 1200 km with standard fuel or 5000 km with air-to-air refuelling
Operating radius (Einstzradius)
- 500 km with 10 – 13 ton load
- 360 km with 15 ton overload

Costs (Preise)
No details available yet.

Customers (Kunden)
Germany needs a replacement for its CH-53s. France is also interested. In the RFI issued in February 2006, production options for 60 to 120 machines were mentioned. Other European countries could be interested in a heavy lift capability as well.

Competitors (Konkurrenz)
Sikorsky CH-53K

Remarks (Bemerkungen)
For long-range airborne operations, NATO nations will need a new heavy lift helicopter to replace types like the CH-53G or the Chinook. Eurocopter is proposing a new design concept that will boost capabilities.
Among the loads will be the Dingo or Fennek armed personnel carrier, the French VBL and VAB (13000 kg) vehicles as well as Wolf and Wiesel (4500 kg) or BV206.


Among the technologies proposed for HTH are:
seven blade rotor with elastomeric head and high-performance composite blades
glass cockpit with four-axis autopilot and sensors for all-weather capability
Fly-by-wire or fly-by-light
modular ballistic protection
full composite fuselage
reduced signature

In the spring of 2004, Eurocopter stated that the HTH would be ideal for international cooperation. Especially, a transatlantic partnership would be preferable, to bring costs down.
Eurocopter proposed to contribute high-tech components like fly-by-wire or fly-by-light, digital flight control systems, glass cockpit and composite structures. An aim would be to use existing test and training equipment from the Tiger and NH90 programs.

History (Geschichte)

The German army aviation command has, together with the French DGA, defined the basic requirements for a new heavy transport helicopter. These were also cross-checked with the NATO Landgroup 10 specifications.
Thus, Eurocopter started preliminary studies for a successor to the German army CH-53G helicopters in about 2003. In the spring of 2004 it was said that there are no German funds available for the programme for now. It was said that a new HTH could be available around 2015 – 2020.

In February 2006, the German BWB (procurement agency located in Koblenz) issued an RFI (request for information) to Eurocopter regarding HTH, with a due date of 21. July 2006.
In March 2006, Eurocopter said that an HTH could become available in 2018 at the earliest, based on a strategic partnership with another company and a development start around 2010. Sikorsky would be the most likely fit, as it is developing the CH-53K for the US Marine Corps.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRHTH.htm

From Wikipedia:

The helicopter will be expected to carry the Dingo or Fennek armed personnel carrier, the French VBL and VAB (13,000 kg) vehicles, as well as Wolf and Wiesel (4,500 kg) or Bv 206.

Another wish is that the helicopter could use the same training equipment as the Tiger and NH90 helicopters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Transport_Helicopter

The comparative fuselage cross section graphic gives you an idea of how much larger the Eurocopter HTH is to the Sikorsky CH-53G and the NH Industries NH-90.
 

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JohnR

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It does look like an attempt to reinvent the wheel!
 

sferrin

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CH-53Ks for everybody! :D
 

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sferrin

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According to AvWeek a couple European countries have expressed interest to one degree or another (Spain and Germany IIRC). I think if the CH-53K is already flying with a minimum of surprises (knock on wood) it would be tough to justify a European one virtually in the same class. Imagine if the US had an A400-class transport in service right now what might be happening.
 

hesham

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Hi,

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/2002/2002%20-%202882.html
 

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yasotay

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sferrin said:
According to AvWeek a couple European countries have expressed interest to one degree or another (Spain and Germany IIRC). I think if the CH-53K is already flying with a minimum of surprises (knock on wood) it would be tough to justify a European one virtually in the same class. Imagine if the US had an A400-class transport in service right now what might be happening.
CH-53K is not yet flying. Long lead items are working and there are some issues with the engines and (surprise) cost are going up.
 

fightingirish

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Hey folks,
don't mix up the Eurocopter HTH concept and the Sikorsky HLH/HTH concept.
Both look similar, because they have a NH90 style fuselage and might have CH-53E / CH-53K engines, drive and control parts.

Still I will attach a resized picture of the Sikorsky HLH/HTH concept, because I did't find else in this forum.
Mods, feel free to move this post to the appropriate thread. :)
 

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sferrin

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yasotay said:
sferrin said:
According to AvWeek a couple European countries have expressed interest to one degree or another (Spain and Germany IIRC). I think if the CH-53K is already flying with a minimum of surprises (knock on wood) it would be tough to justify a European one virtually in the same class. Imagine if the US had an A400-class transport in service right now what might be happening.
CH-53K is not yet flying. Long lead items are working and there are some issues with the engines and (surprise) cost are going up.
Nobody said it was flying yet, but it will be long before a Eurocopter HTH. What are the issues with the engines you speak of? As for costs it would still likely be cheaper to buy CH-53K (given the numbers planned) than to go it alone.
 

Triton

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The 2006 Sikorsky proposal derived from the CH-53E resembles the Eurocopter Heavy Transport Helicopter proposal. Probably because both proposals were a response to the same Heavy Transport Helicopter requirements. It's easy to confuse the two since they look so similar. Perhaps the topic should be renamed to "European Heavy Transport Helicopter (HTH) Program"? I also understand that Eurocopter approached Sikorsky about a partnership to develop the HTH sometime in 2006.

The project has become a European Defense Agency project named "Future Transport Helicopter (FTH)."

According to Graham Warwick in his Ares blog on June 02, 2009:

Although Germany's requirement is to replace its CH-53Gs, the new CH-53K isn't big enough to meet the FTH requirement, which calls for a cabin large enough to transport light armored vehicles. But the CH-53K's new dynamic system might be big enough for the job if mated to a new, larger airframe.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A4b730c36-c546-4b87-8745-21fd61868624

Flight International reported on September 07, 2009 that the European Defence Agency approved a two-year study into future heavylift helicopter requirements and the evaluation of three candidate helicopters: the Boeing CH-47F Chinook, Mil Mi-26, and Sikorsky CH-53K.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/07/09/329438/european-defence-agency-approves-two-year-study-into-future-heavylift.html

It seems that the idea of a new European program to develop a new helicopter for the Future Transport Helicopter (FTH) program is dead.

According to Bill Sweetman, Boeing is interested in the program and has proposed a derivative of its CH-47 Chinook.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A4b730c36-c546-4b87-8745-21fd61868624
 

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yasotay

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sferrin said:
yasotay said:
sferrin said:
According to AvWeek a couple European countries have expressed interest to one degree or another (Spain and Germany IIRC). I think if the CH-53K is already flying with a minimum of surprises (knock on wood) it would be tough to justify a European one virtually in the same class. Imagine if the US had an A400-class transport in service right now what might be happening.
CH-53K is not yet flying. Long lead items are working and there are some issues with the engines and (surprise) cost are going up.
Nobody said it was flying yet, but it will be long before a Eurocopter HTH. What are the issues with the engines you speak of? As for costs it would still likely be cheaper to buy CH-53K (given the numbers planned) than to go it alone.
Sorry I misunderstood your initial comment.
 

fightingirish

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Triton said:
It seems that the idea of a new European program to develop a new helicopter for the Future Transport Helicopter (FTH) program is dead.
According to Bill Sweetman, Boeing is interested in the program and has proposed a derivative of its CH-47 Chinook.
Source (PDF): http://www.eda.europa.eu/WebUtils/downloadfile.aspx?FileID=532
 

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yasotay

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Not sure that the program is dead. Getting aerospace companies to work together is a long painful process.

The picture certainly would be a logical evolution for Boeing. Given CH-47 and the even larger design they did for the Army JHL program.
 

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According to FlugRevue .12.09 on the Helicopterforum 2009 in Bückeburg, an
Eurocopter proposal for the FTH was show, looking quite similar to the one
from Boeing. Length overall 33m, rotor diameter 19,5m, height 7,8m, cabin length
11,1m, cabin width 3,1m, cabin height 2,74m, MTOW 36.000 kg, 2 engines in the
5600 kw class.
Of course, the A400M could make several politicians preferring, what seems to be
an "of-the-shelf" solution. ::)
 

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hesham

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Hi,

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/09/343011/ila-eurocopter-reveals-chinook-style-heavy-transport-helicopter.html
 

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Triton

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Eurocopter and Boeing have agreed to co-operate on the Future Transport Helicopter (FTH). The fuselage would be 66 feet long (sic) and 12 feet wide, enabling the internal carriage of armored vehicles. The aircraft's tandem four-bladed main rotors have a span of 19.5m (64ft) and the helicopter would be capable of carrying up to 56 troops in addition to its three-person crew, Eurocopter says. The concept has a proposed 167kt (310km/h) top speed, and would cruise at around 148kt to an altitude of around 23,000ft.

Eurocopter says the concept has a projected range of 300km (162nm) with its maximum 13t payload, with this increasing to 1,000km at 8t. In-flight refuelling would stretch its range to up to 5,000km, it adds.

Model of Eurocopter Boeing Future Transport Helicopter (FTH) on display at the ILA Berlin Air Show 2010.

Model of Eurocopter Boeing Future Transport Helicopter (FTH).

Sources:
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/boeing-and-eurocopter-to-build-a-bigger-chinook-25173/
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/09/343011/ila-eurocopter-reveals-chinook-style-heavy-transport-helicopter.html
http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/eads-eurocopter-et-boeing-etudient-en-commun-un-helicoptere-lourd-05-07-2010-1211185_23.php
 

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Triton

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Model of Eurocopter HTH on display at ILA 2004.

Source:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/thread/1087046139/1087201431/Eurocopter+Unveils+Heavy-Lift+Helo+Concept

ILA 2004: Eurocopter unveils Heavy Transport Helicopter concept
ROBERT HEWSON Editor, Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
Berlin

The German Army's CH-53G replacement requirement is driving Eurocopter's new Heavy Transport Helicopter (HTH) concept that was shown for the first time at the International Aerospace Exhibition in Berlin.

However, Eurocopter admits that the European market for helicopters in this class will not support an independent development programme and the company is looking to the US Marine Corps' CH-53X effort.

The three-engined HTH draws on NH90 experience, using Eurocopter's fly-by-wire control system and composite structure technology. With a payload of between 10 and 13 tons, carrying 70 troops, the HTH would have a maximum range of 1,200km without refuelling. Eurocopter has described the HTH as possibly the "Airbus A380 of helicopters" and hopes that it might become the basis for a new European-US co-operative development programme. German officials have already said that they do not favour a CH-53 upgrade and would prefer to acquire a new aircraft.
Eurocopter HTH :

Crew: 2
Passengers: 70 soldiers

Power plant: 3 x turboshafts
Power: 3 x 5000 kW

Performance

Top speed: 300 km/h
Range up to 1200 km or 5000 km with air-to-air refuelling

Dimensions

Cabin length : at least 10 m
Cabin width: at least 3 m
Cabin height: at least 1,6 m

Weights

Payload: around 10 tons in the cabin
Max. take-off weight: up to 40 tons

History

The German army aviation command has, together with the French DGA, defined the basic requirements for a new heavy transport helicopter. These were also cross-checked with the NATO Landgroup 10 specifications.
Thus, Eurocopter started preliminary studies for a successor to the German army CH-53G helicopters in about 2003. In the spring of 2004 it was said that there are no German funds available for the programme for now.
A new HTH could be available around 2015 – 2020.

Remarks

For long-range airborne operations, NATO nations will need a new heavy lift helicopter to replace types like the CH-53G or the Chinook. Eurocopter is proposing a new design concept that will boost capabilities.
Among the loads will be the Dingo personell carrier.
In the spring of 2004, Eurocopter stated that the HTH would be ideal for international cooperation. Especially, a transatlantic partnership would be preferable, to bring costs down.
Eurocopter proposed to contribute high-tech components like fly-by-wire or fly-by-light, digital flight control systems, glass cockpit and composite structures. An aim would be to use existing test and training equipment from the Tiger and NH90 programmes.
Source:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?114622-Germany-and-France-to-build-new-Heavy-Transport-Helicopter
 

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fightingirish

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Amy Butler said:
Details are expected to emerge this week of a joint venture between EADS and Boeing to capture work for Germany’s next-generation heavy-lift helicopter program.
EADS is displaying its joint concept with Boeing, including diagrams of a proposed tandem-rotor design and a full-scale cross section of the proposed cabin for the aircraft. It looks much like an enlarged CH-47 Chinook, built by Boeing. It is likely that Boeing’s contribution to this design would be providing the tandem-rotor technology and dynamics of the aircraft. [...]
Source: Aviation Week - ILA Berlin Air Show 2012 - German Heavy Lift: Buy Big, or Think Smaller?
 

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Triton

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Photo of EADS/Boeing full-scale cross section of Future Transport Helicopter (FTH) on display at ILA Berlin Air Show 2012.

Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/media/images/fullsize/Defense/Helos/Heavycopter_cabin_Eurocopter.jpg
 

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Triton

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Are there advantages in a heavy lift helicopter moving from a main rotor/anti-torque tail rotor configuration to a tandem rotor configuration?
 
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