• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

DuPont Aerospace Projects

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
The STOVL buff in me yells "YEEEEESSSSS"!!!
 

Machdiamond

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
327
Reaction score
5
While looking for something completely unrelated, I stumbled upon this report so I thought I might as well post this here:

Investigation of Flow Instabilities in the Inlet Ducts of DP–1C VTOL Aircraft

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2008/CR-2008-215216.pdf

Some images from the report:
 

Attachments

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
Nice pics... but that plane is something of a joke, right? Does anyone know any image of it actually FLYING? (which is, after all, what it was built to do?). I don't think I've ever seen one. Even the XFV-12A took off in tethered mode...
 

Machdiamond

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
327
Reaction score
5
In my opinion, yes it is a complete joke. A project like that had zero chance of success, even without hindsight.

Having said that, some people worked really hard and believed in it and I have some respect for that.

--Luc
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
10,295
Reaction score
859
Good find! I found the highlighted sections in particular interesting:

COMPOSITE MATERIALS
The DP-2 concept, and the DP-1 test aircraft, incorporated extensive use of composites. The airframe structure was manufactured out of two types of composite material systems, one for the basic airframe and the other for the TVCS area that requires exposure to high temperatures. The airframe structure was mostly manufactured using a fiberglass reinforced polyimide honeycomb (HRH-327) and graphite and cyanate ester prepreg skin (LTM45) configuration. All of the structure was vacuum bag/oven cured instead of using an autoclave. Major joints of the airframe were bonded together using film adhesive, minimizing fastener use. The material choices would be a concern if the concept were to be operated in a maritime environment, but were usable in the test article to prove the concept.

The major risk with composite materials was in the exhaust hot section. The nozzle box in which the TVCS was mounted, the cascades, the deflection doors, and the control surfaces were manufactured from composite material. Several delaminations and failures of nozzle box honeycomb sandwich panels were experienced during the course of testing. Eventually all honeycomb sandwich panels in the nozzle box, cascades, and doors were replaced with a coreless construction, using skins supported by an internal truss structure. Material used was graphite and cyanate ester prepreg matrix material (Advanced Ceramics Group LTM110).
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
Surprising though it may seem, there has never been a topic in the "Postwar Aircraft Projects" section devoted to the DuPont DP-2 project.

And yet the DP-2 did not consist only in the infamous white prototype (white elephant!) that has been covered in other places, but also in a passenger-transport derivative that was meant to be developed from it. I've enclosed an article from AIR INTERNATIONAL dated March 1984 as well as a couple of artist's concepts.


Other DuPont-related topics on the forum:

  • DuPont Aerospace DP-2 STOVL transport as featured on ABC news.....
    http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1979.0
  • DuPont Aerospace VSTOL Model
    http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11474.0
  • DuPont Aerospace DP-2 Model
    http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10398.0
 

Attachments

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
10,295
Reaction score
859
Can't access the last two linked topics. Haven't earned enough access?

Thanks.
 

circle-5

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
1,161
Reaction score
94
Photo of the DuPont DP-1 VTOL proof-of-concept vehicle, taken yesterday at the Classic Rotors museum in Ramona, California. The DP-1 program was de-funded by DARPA a few days after its most successful test flight.
 

Attachments

Mark Nankivil

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
290
Greetings All -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUPONT-DP-2-US-MARINES-VTOL-AIRCRAFT-DISPLAY-MODEL-/230774696742?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35bb3e6b26

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Attachments

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
From the "Flying Cars" topic, a very interesting first-hand opinion on the DP-2...

 

Mr London 24/7

CLEARANCE: Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
384
Reaction score
18
The team (in 1996), which also included Pratt & Whitney, built a full scale test article which was tested at the P&W West Palm Beach facility with some success. DuPont’s vectoring system turned the gas turbine engine thrust with acceptable efficiency. Unfortunately, duPont’s composite material curing process did not result in adequate temperature survivability and the structure lacked adequate strength.
http://gop.science.house.gov/Media/Hearings/oversight07/June12/scheuren.pdf

I suppose refs same test as http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1979.msg16917.html#msg16917
 

circle-5

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
1,161
Reaction score
94
Keep your eyes open for an article on the DuPont DP-1 and DP-2 in the April-May 2014 issue of the Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine.
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
circle-5 said:
Keep your eyes open for an article on the DuPont DP-1 and DP-2 in the April-May 2014 issue of the Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine.

Awkward choice of dates. Some readers might think it's an April Fool's joke... LOL
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
2,898
Reaction score
494
So far Tony Dupont career milestones include
- Garret ATF-3
- Garrett... HRE (Hypersonic Research Engine)
The HRE was a scramjet which mockup was carried by the X-15A-2 the day (October 3, 1967) it reached mach 6.7 and nearly melted. Never realised until recently that HRE ground-based research lasted until 1974, far beyond the X-15 itself.
Later it was found (by Langley RC) that Dupont podded scramjets had too much drag.
- Copper Canyon / Orient Express (1982 - 1993)
- and the DP-2

Is it just me, or are there some strinking similarities between the X-30 and DP-2, both expensive boondoggles ?
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
Archibald said:
Is it just me, or are there some strinking similarities between the X-30 and DP-2, both expensive boondoggles ?

You are even closer to the truth than you thought... DuPont actually submitted a contender for the X-30 design competition! It can be seen in the Orient Express/X-30 topic on this very forum I think.
 

AeroFranz

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,193
Reaction score
68
One was the very good mixing of the hot and cold streams (lower IR signature).
Reverse flow engines also tend to have shorter shaft.
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
2,898
Reaction score
494
Some interesting articles shedding light on the DP-2 boondoggle

http://www.wired.com/2007/06/hunters_folly_6/

SKYBLAZER - Keep your eyes open for an article on the DuPont DP-1 and DP-2 in the April-May 2014 issue of the Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine.
You can read it here
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/puzzle-vertical-takeoff-180950147/

The whole story is very appalling. $63 million burned over two decades for a piece of junk that was dismissed by the Navy, DARPA and NASA altogether.
Only because Dupont fed Duncan Hunter political campaigns.My God.

As for the Orient Express - Dupont baseline weighed only 50 000 pounds. NASA doing the maths properly later (too late ?) showed that a) the plane couldn't made it to orbit, b) it had no undercarriage and c) it carried zero payload
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
Archibald said:
Some interesting articles shedding light on the DP-2 boondoggle
Very interesting. We all knew it was a disaster, but this sheds some new light as to how much... Thanks a lot for sharing.
 

iverson

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
241
Reaction score
26
Archibald said:
The whole story is very appalling. $63 million burned over two decades for a piece of junk that was dismissed by the Navy, DARPA and NASA altogether.
Only because Dupont fed Duncan Hunter political campaigns.My God.

As for the Orient Express - Dupont baseline weighed only 50 000 pounds. NASA doing the maths properly later (too late ?) showed that a) the plane couldn't made it to orbit, b) it had no undercarriage and c) it carried zero payload
It is worth noting that it is a little unfair to attribute Mr. Hunter's support purely to campaign contributions.

Mr. Hunter is a typical example of a type of super-patriotic, right-wing politician in America. He equates the defense of the country with being pro-military and equates being pro-military with being pro-defense-contractor. When these "private sector" companies (Good) come into conflict with "Government" (Bad), as personified by technical experts and accountants at DoD, NASA, or the services ("Pointy Headed Bureaucrats"), he reflexively backs the contractor (Profit is Good). So I am sure that Mr. Hunter was sincere in his opinions. He viewed his support for Dupont and Dupont's support for him as entirely justified. Randy Cunningham probably felt the same way.

As a wise man once said, patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels. So I never trust anyone who wears one of those little flag pins in his lapel.
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
2,898
Reaction score
494
It is interesting to review Tony Dupont career in hypersonic research. DuPont is the link between the X-15A-2 and the X-30, through NASA Hypersonic Research Engine.
The HRE was a podded scramjet to be mounted below the X-15A-2 belly.
There were three competitors for the HRE - Garrett Airesearch was one of them. There, Tony Dupont did a good job on the HRE. Except that, during HRE X-15 and ground testing, it was found that podded scramjet were crap. They had too much drag and too little thrust.
According to a NASA Langley engineer he managed to convince Dupont to go for integrated-airframe scramjet (see the X-30 and X-43 shape).

Dupont stuck with its scramjet and in 1982-83 he was the driving force behind DARPA Copper Canyon.

I'm getting out of topic, so I'll be brief. DuPont supporter at DARPA was Robert Williams, a very good aerodynamicist... for helicopters, not scramjets.
Over the next five years Williams remained a staunch supporter of Dupont baseline X-30... which was based on extremely optimistic estimates.
Robert Williams was by himself the driving force behind another aerodynamic aberration of the 80's, the X-wing helicopter. http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,117.msg27454.html#msg27454

I'm suspecting that Robert Williams believed that Dupont NASP was to aircrafts what his X-wing was to helicopters: the beginning of a revolution. We all know how both revolution ended.

What strikes me is that NASP ran for seven years, swallowed billion of dollars - yet the whole thing was based on a very flawed Dupont design !
 

AeroFranz

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,193
Reaction score
68
Interesting background. Thanks! :)
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
Archibald said:
I'm suspecting that Robert Williams believed that Dupont NASP was to aircrafts what his X-wing was to helicopters: the beginning of a revolution. We all know how both revolution ended.

What strikes me is that NASP ran for seven years, swallowed billion of dollars - yet the whole thing was based on a very flawed Dupont design !
Not to mention the vast number of would-be revolutionary bizjet designs based on Williams jets that ate up a lot of dough but never took off commercially!
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
265
Machdiamond said:
Sam Williams is not from the same planet as Robert.
OOOOPS!!! My bad! Got carried away here and went completely off... Of course it's not the same Williams, shame on me!
 

Dynoman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
820
Reaction score
114
Interesting Congressional Testimony on X-30 by Anthony (Tony) DuPont.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?33140-1/national-aerospace-airplane-x30-program
 

RAP

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
654
Reaction score
260
Dupont DP-1 VTOL Aircraft

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUPONT-DP-1-Vertical-takeoff-Jet-US-NAVY-AIRPLANE-AIRCRAFT-DISPLAY-MODEL-/232169866954?hash=item360e6706ca:g:UZsAAOSwiDFYNNGa
 

Attachments

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
25,312
Reaction score
2,194
From L + K 1/1982.
 

Attachments

Top