DPRK Navy ships

Kim Jong Un Visits Destroyer Choe Hyon and Learns about Training and Life of Sailors​

Newstream | KCNA Watch

kcnawatch.org kcnawatch.org
...........After receiving a report on the course of the sectional tests of the various weapon systems of the warship and the composition of the integrated operation system, he expressed satisfaction over the fact that the major tasks for making the navy high-tech and nuclear-armed are progressing on a stage-by-stage basis as planned........
 
The destroyer Kang Gon 52- Choe Hyon class , which had been transferred to the dry dock at the Rason shipyard for repairs following a failed launch, has returned to Chongjin, presumably to complete its outfitting.
Satellite photos from the NKnews website.
www.nknews.org

New North Korean destroyer sails back to shipyard where failed launch took place | NK PRO

A new North Korean destroyer has returned to the east coast shipyard where it capsized during a bungled launch earlier this year , according to NK Pro analysis of satellite imagery, likely for further installation of weapons and fitting out its interior ahead of being deployed next year. Planet...
www.nknews.org www.nknews.org
 
sahureka said:
The destroyer Kang Gon 52- Choe Hyon class , which had been transferred to the dry dock at the Rason shipyard for repairs following a failed launch, has returned to Chongjin, presumably to complete its outfitting.
Satellite photos from the NKnews website.
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The working speed continue to amaze me.
 
Grey Havoc said:
The rather dire penalties for failure probably have something to do with that.
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Stick without carrot would not give such results. And its seems that current North Korea government is growing a pretty big carrots. The quality of life for average Korean improved drastically; it's still below most developed nations, but much better than it was before.
 
Dilandu said:
Stick without carrot would not give such results. And its seems that current North Korea government is growing a pretty big carrots. The quality of life for average Korean improved drastically; it's still below most developed nations, but much better than it was before.
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All North Koreans need are resources and knowledge—and they are now acquiring both in bulk, through various means.
They are building an education system that will be an absolute top class, if it isn't already in some areas.
A boom is underway, one that will be amplified in the coming years by the use of AI, big data, and automation.
We will witness great things.
A small taste of what's to come will arrive in a month.
 
Geo said:
All North Koreans need are resources and knowledge—and they are now acquiring both in bulk, through various means.
They are building an education system that will be an absolute top class, if it isn't already in some areas.
A boom is underway, one that will be amplified in the coming years by the use of AI, big data, and automation.
We will witness great things.
A small taste of what's to come will arrive in a month.
Click to expand...
Could you elaborate a bit on that last part? My understanding is there will be a parade in October, are we expecting another wave of new weapon systems? Any idea what?

Also, just to say that imo westerners probably forget that asian people are probably the most intelligent as far as IQ goes, koreans being consistently near the top. DPRK is of course made of koreans. If you couple this with the general obsession of communism with technology (they always dreamed tractors and combines and factories and steel works and all this stuff) you can bet DPRK probably has some of the best scientific minds. Their limitation is indeed lack of access to resources which the west have been trying for decades to block DPRK from, but even so the demonstrated military and other advances of DPRK shows their true potential.
 
lancer21 said:
Could you elaborate a bit on that last part? My understanding is there will be a parade in October, are we expecting another wave of new weapon systems? Any idea what?

Also, just to say that imo westerners probably forget that asian people are probably the most intelligent as far as IQ goes, koreans being consistently near the top. DPRK is of course made of koreans. If you couple this with the general obsession of communism with technology (they always dreamed tractors and combines and factories and steel works and all this stuff) you can bet DPRK probably has some of the best scientific minds. Their limitation is indeed lack of access to resources which the west have been trying for decades to block DPRK from, but even so the demonstrated military and other advances of DPRK shows their true potential.
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We can judge this from several recent facts. On the one hand, there are analyses by NK PRO (some of them unfortunately behind a paywall), and on the other, there is also the seemingly banal fact that KCTV broadcast a 50-minute documentary about KJU’s trip to Beijing, including uncensored footage of all the important parts of the military parade—for the domestic audience, that is, which means that North Korea itself has nothing to be ashamed of in front of its own people and can, in some respects, present comparable systems.

It is not a “communist obsession with technology” or anything of the sort. It is an evolution that is ideologically well defined in socialist systems, but how it unfolds over time depends on both objective and subjective factors. Asian “specific characteristics” mean not only taking into account national particularities or the implementation of market mechanisms, but also not rushing things. Patience.

After 1990, the DPRK first had to cope with food shortages. In the next phase, it had to secure its defense capabilities. Now, in the emerging third phase, comes the development of technology and investment in the civilian sector. That is why the level of prosperity is rising rapidly: hundreds of thousands (!) of new apartments are being built, the 20×10 policy with new consumer goods factories is being implemented, along with a network of local (modern) hospitals, cultural and leisure facilities, and more.

And to stay on topic— a new cruiser is being designed.
 
Grossly off topic, but I could not let this pass:
lancer21 said:
imo westerners probably forget that asian people are probably the most intelligent as far as IQ goes
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All measured with the same IQ tests? There is a strong cultural bias in many IQ tests.

Add to that, IQ tests are usually conducted in the testing country's language, so a non-native speaker's score drops several IQ points because of (a degree of) language unfamiliarity.
How to compare entirely different IQ tests? Methodology could be entirely different. Even with similar methodology, where similar questions are weighted/graded in similar ways, I think I will score worse in a French test than in a Dutch test..

People raised in different cultures can perceive the world in subtly different ways, one example:
link.springer.com

Cross-cultural differences in memory specificity - Culture and Brain

Attention and memory have been shown to differ across cultures, with independent Western cultures preferring an object-based feature analysis and interdependent Eastern cultures preferring a context-based holistic analysis. In two experiments, we assessed whether these cultural differences not...
link.springer.com link.springer.com

My working career was blighted by people worshipping numbers (like IQ score) instead of observing and trying to understand reality.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it: design a language- and culture-independent test that reliably measures intelligence. In whatever way you wish to define intelligence.
 
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To get back on topic, it's evident and always has been clear that the Korean people are a crafty, resourceful and smart bunch, regardless if North or South. Regardless if that's reflected in oppressive corporatism or oppressive militarism in either case.

What I'm interested in, is what lies ahead for the People's Navy. They showed that they can create moderately modern destroyers in a humane time frame. What's next? Modern SSKs derived from Russian Kilo and Lada designs? More unmanned vessels? Command and Control type ships for the nuclear arsenal? More DDGs or perhaps smaller surface combatants?

North Korea is quite literally a mystery box and having blown many critics out of the water with the DDGs they constructed (although blowing one of them into the water doing so) I think it's worth keeping an eye on the northern half of the Korean peninsula.
 
I wonder what the “cruiser” North Korea is referring to will be. While it’s not certain, it would have to be at least 10k tons in displacement – much, much more than the Choe Hyon-class to make a noticeable difference. Type 055 is what comes to mind first – the largest and (one of) the most powerful destroyers in Northeast Asia and the world, and from China, a long-time benefactor of Pyongyang.

Naval unmanned technology would be a game changer for them; hundreds of aging patrol boats, gunboats, and torpedo boats could be retrofitted into USVs without having to decommission them all (and thus be expensive to replace). (And even midget subs could be converted into UUVs too)

And don't forget their nuclear-powered submarines under construction, at least 8k tons in displacement and armed with new SLBMs that are predicted to be able to reach the United States...

But much remains uncertain. With its growing number of capital ships, North Korea has shown no sign of attempting to build escort ships to accompany them – although that would not be difficult, based on the Amnok/Yalu-class hull are enough. The program to convert old Romeos into nuclear attack submarines is stalled, two years after the first one was launched. And North Korea needs a new class of attack submarine; the Romeos, even if some of them are retained, are hopelessly outdated.
 
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Some interesting changes on first North Korean destroyer:

Bow missile system got 32 small VLC replaced with additional 12 medium VLC

Phased array fire control radar were replaced with more traditional monopulse scan dishes

Old AK-630 CIWS were replaced with new CIWS (looks like Chinese) with integrated radars & cameras

A battery of short-range defensive missiles was replaced with chaff launchers

IMHO, North Koreans meet some trouble with their short-range SAM system, that they couldn't solve in time. To avoid delaying ship commissioning (after all, they need her in sea to gain experience!), they utilized fallback option; replaced short-range SAM with additional cells for long-range SAM, and installed simpler single-channel FC radars. And improved self-defense capbilities also. Looks like... pragmatic approach; better to have warship in service with reduced capabilities, then spend years trying to remedy some flaw in ond of the systems.

IMG_20251006_084635_298.jpg IMG_20251006_084622_912.jpg IMG_20251006_084623_071.jpg IMG_20251006_084622_778.jpg IMG_20251006_084622_766.jpg
 
Dilandu said:
Some interesting changes on first North Korean destroyer:

Bow missile system got 32 small VLC replaced with additional 12 medium VLC

Phased array fire control radar were replaced with more traditional monopulse scan dishes

Old AK-630 CIWS were replaced with new CIWS (looks like Chinese) with integrated radars & cameras

A battery of short-range defensive missiles was replaced with chaff launchers

IMHO, North Koreans meet some trouble with their short-range SAM system, that they couldn't solve in time. To avoid delaying ship commissioning (after all, they need her in sea to gain experience!), they utilized fallback option; replaced short-range SAM with additional cells for long-range SAM, and installed simpler single-channel FC radars. And improved self-defense capbilities also. Looks like... pragmatic approach; better to have warship in service with reduced capabilities, then spend years trying to remedy some flaw in ond of the systems.

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What are the chances that they will parade a truck mounted version of this new CIWS in the October 10th parade?
 
My IMHO about the changes - their initial multi-channel phased array fire control radars demonstrated themselves to be too flawed for practical use (not exactly the first time in history... for example, USN's AN/SPG-51 radar, used for RIM-24 Tartar SAM was basically unworkable in first versions). So they decided to replace it with simpler, single-channel monopulse dish radars. Less capable, but more reliable.

Problem was - the single-channel dish radars apparently could not provide guidance for their short/medium range SAM's (for which the 32 small VLC were likely intended). So North Korean admirals decided to remove those VLC also, and increase the number of large VLCs for long-range air defense missiles (the Pongae-6, which were launched from destroyer during trials).

So now they have warship with working long-range air defense, but deficient short-range air defense. To remedy the problem, they replaced obsolete AK-630 with a new CIWS - with on-mount radar, so it could seek for low-altitude targets by itself.

Also, they replaced short-range quad missile launchers on sides with additional chaff launchers (perhaps for the same reason - increased self-defense), and repositioned the EW modules from the top of the superstructure to the "balcony" on its sides (apparently the dish radars sidelobes created too much interference for EW systems to work on their previous places)

All considering, they clearly want the ship to be sea-capable soon, even at the cost of reduced capabilities. They content with having limited-capacity short-range & self-defense systems, as long as they could make their long-range SAM's to work. Which, again, make sence - long-range SAM create much more tactical problems to enemy aviation, than short-range. And they don't want to wait unclear amount of time until the problems with phased array FC radars could be solved. They prefer to have at least their first destroyer ready & running, so they could perform sea trials, saw how other systems operate, find & fix other flaws, ect.

P.S. It would be interesting to see, was the second destroyer also subjected to such refit? If no, then they might hope to solve their radar problems soon, so the second unit could be fully-capable.
 
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Pyongyang, December 25
Kim Jong Un went round the site of building the nuclear-powered of an 8700-tonnage submarine and received a report on its progress
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KCNA | Article | Respected Comrade Kim Jong Un Guides Building of Nuclear-powered Strategic Guided Missile Submarine

Respected Comrade Kim Jong Un Guides Building of Nuclear-powered Strategic Guided Missile Submarine
kcna.kp kcna.kp
 
Dilandu said:
Boat clearly is far from complete; just removed scaffolds so she would looks more visually impressive.
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And looking at just these few photos, what are the signs that it's far from complete?

My thoughts: since the hull is already "closed," the main internal systems, including the entire (nuclear) propulsion system, are certainly installed, as are everything related to launching missiles from the silos, as well as the torpedo tubes (which makes me wonder if the North Koreans also adapted them for missile launching, like the Russian Kilo-class). Furthermore, the sail appears to have numerous elements necessary for underwater navigation.Aside from all this, it seems to me that before the launch, only the final coat of paint is missing.
I have a feeling Kim Jong Un will soon delight us with the launching ceremony.In conclusion, I can only agree that after launching, it will likely take many months or years to make it fully operational, starting with sea trials, sailor training, test launches, and mission planning.
 
Returning to the submarine's completion, South Korean submarine expert Moon Geun-sik of Hanyang University (Seoul) effectively confirmed my observations, stating:
It's unclear how close North Korea is to completing the submarine. However, since submarines are typically built from the inside out, the publication of a photograph apparently showing a nearly completed hull suggests that many key components, including the engine and possibly the reactor, have already been installed.
 
sahureka said:
It's unclear how close North Korea is to completing the submarine. However, since submarines are typically built from the inside out, the publication of a photograph apparently showing a nearly completed hull suggests that many key components, including the engine and possibly the reactor, have already been installed.
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Okay, it's fair and you are likely right in that matter.
 
It likely serves other purposes, but it resembles a seawater intake, with a configuration similar to those used, for example, on Soviet/Russian nuclear submarines.
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These intakes do not pump seawater directly through the reactor core. Instead, they use a multi-circuit system in which seawater is used in a heat exchanger to condense steam into water in a separate, non-radioactive circuit.
Seawater intakes and outlets are typically located on the sides of the submarine's hull, aft of the main reactor compartment.
 
Any estimates/guesses at the size/length of this sub?
Edit: A report says NK state media say 8700t, which if true puts it a little bit bigger than the Benjamin Franklin, Redoutable, and Resolution SSBN classes.
 
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kaiserbill said:
Any estimates/guesses at the size/length of this sub?
Edit: A report says NK state media say 8700t, which if true puts it a little bit bigger than the Benjamin Franklin, Redoutable, and Resolution SSBN classes.
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Decker Eveleth (Middlebury Institute alumni, Center for Naval Analyses) puts the hull diameter at ~10.2 meters.

He is very skeptical about NK's ability to produce an indigenous submarine nuclear reactor. He suspects that Russia may transferred the technology in one form or another, likely in return for services rendered in the ongoing attempted destruction of Ukraine. He's also wondering about the vessel's missile tubes extending all the way up to its sail as this might either upset its balance or warrant an ICBM sized missile (at least 14 meters in length) yet unseen in public, another area of development which Russian assistance may have enabled. A larger than heretofore known missile would have implications on how the submarine is being envisioned to be employed by NK's elite; some of these uses are more implausible than others. Eveleth also notes fmr. US Navy capt. Shugart pointing to the lack of obvious means of ballast control, casting further doubt on the state of the submarine's seaworthiness let alone imminent commissioning. Article below:

horsdoeuvresofbattle.substack.com

North Korea's Curious Nuclear Submarine

North Korea has finally unveiled the long sought-after nuclear submarine.
horsdoeuvresofbattle.substack.com horsdoeuvresofbattle.substack.com
 
UpForce said:
US Navy capt. Shugart pointing to the lack of obvious means of ballast control, casting further doubt on the state of the submarine's seaworthiness let alone imminent commissioning.
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Naturally so, since the normal angles for reliable observation is not provided. Do we assume an unknown adversary plane is rocket powered if the intake is not seen?

At lease claiming that it is a full scale mockup has better credibility.
 
yeetmahboi said:
Naturally so, since the normal angles for reliable observation is not provided. Do we assume an unknown adversary plane is rocket powered if the intake is not seen?

At lease claiming that it is a full scale mockup has better credibility.
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Shugart is a fmr. submarine captain so should know a thing or two. Here's his exact wording on Twitter:

Tom Shugart said:
Might be just be the low resolution, but the hull looks awfully bare for a real submarine - I don't see seawater system intakes or discharges, main ballast tank grates, etc. (shrug emoji)
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Read into that what you may. This was a few days back so analysis and discussion must've progressed from that.
 
I can only laugh at these western "alumni", the claptrap they write panders to political sensibilities rather than any kind of serious analysis. "Casting doubt" is the language they always use when it comes to DPRK weapon systems. Obviously it takes time to build a DDG or SSBN but does any half serious military analysts doubts DPRK's MIC capability and competence and putting these ships to sea? I won't be surprised if the next year of maybe 2027 we'll see this SSBN launching SLBMs.
 
UpForce said:
Shugart is a fmr. submarine captain so should know a thing or two. Here's his exact wording on Twitter:



Read into that what you may. This was a few days back so analysis and discussion must've progressed from that.
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Credentials only substantiated opinions supported by facts. Lukewarm throwaway lines means nothing unless your intention is to conceal.
As @sahureka points out, there are protrusions, maybe scoops on the rearward side, maybe to take in water. We don't know if there are outlets, though.
 
UpForce said:
Shugart is a fmr. submarine captain so should know a thing or two.
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The issue is, that rather unfortunately, many active or former service members don't know as much as they sometimes like to believe. Especially when it progresses beyond the operational systems they had to be familiar with in their position. It's the age old issue of a pilot trying to tell an engineer how the engines should perform.

Another submarine related example is the dude that runs the Sub Brief YouTube channel, also a former submariner but regularly called out (here and elsewhere) when he pulls things out of his hat.

Point being, service doesn't qualify one as an expert, as strange as this may sound. Especially not when it comes to the engineering side of things. Now, someone who specifically worked with the propulsion system and power plant of a submarine may be more qualified for that specific discussion than someone else who worked on or in a submarine.
 
EmoBirb said:
The issue is, that rather unfortunately, many active or former service members don't know as much as they sometimes like to believe. Especially when it progresses beyond the operational systems they had to be familiar with in their position. It's the age old issue of a pilot trying to tell an engineer how the engines should perform.

Another submarine related example is the dude that runs the Sub Brief YouTube channel, also a former submariner but regularly called out (here and elsewhere) when he pulls things out of his hat.

Point being, service doesn't qualify one as an expert, as strange as this may sound. Especially not when it comes to the engineering side of things. Now, someone who specifically worked with the propulsion system and power plant of a submarine may be more qualified for that specific discussion than someone else who worked on or in a submarine.
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Yeah, I've complained about this before. I was a submariner who did go into engineering and it's two completely different worlds.

I will say that--as an American submariner--our qualification process is one of the best you'll find, and you *do* learn a great many things about every subsystem on the boat, at least to a greater extent than most servicemembers do. Unfortunately, some people seem to believe that qualification makes them an expert on all things submarine-related and that simply isn't the case. Former submariners are notorious for claiming expertise on topics that are well out of their wheelhouse. I work with people like this every day haha.

Regarding the DPRK image, I have no dog in this fight. I think the main reason it looks strange is that it's apparently covered with 5000 coats of primer, even in places where primer really shouldn't be. (This is probably understandable given little dear leader is visiting, though--boats always look pretty rough during build and they wouldn't want him to see that.)
 
tychosis said:
Yeah, I've complained about this before. I was a submariner who did go into engineering and it's two completely different worlds.

I will say that--as an American submariner--our qualification process is one of the best you'll find, and you *do* learn a great many things about every subsystem on the boat, at least to a greater extent than most servicemembers do. Unfortunately, some people seem to believe that qualification makes them an expert on all things submarine-related and that simply isn't the case. Former submariners are notorious for claiming expertise on topics that are well out of their wheelhouse. I work with people like this every day haha.

Regarding the DPRK image, I have no dog in this fight. I think the main reason it looks strange is that it's apparently covered with 5000 coats of primer, even in places where primer really shouldn't be. (This is probably understandable given little dear leader is visiting, though--boats always look pretty rough during build and they wouldn't want him to see that.)
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It's great to see people with the same or a similar background calling such stuff out. I find such instances especially annoying when media pulls someone out of the left field, calls them an expert and when one looks closer said "expert" was just a regular service member or even less. Now, someone who served on the practical side of things and then went into the engineering side of things as well, that's someone who has valuable insights into design, construction and operation of a given system. That's someone where the moniker may be more aptly applied (although I still think it holds little value when someone is being labeled an expert by people who certainly don't know what would qualify one as such).

As for the submarine, I think it should be clear to everyone that obviously the submarine has been "dressed up" for the visit of Kim Jong-Un and the associated photo ops. After all the lack of scaffolding and overall uncanny cleanliness should give rise to that idea. I for one see little reason to doubt the DPRKs ability to construct such a vessel. After all submarines like the Project 658 or Project 667A are 1960s tech and fill a similar role. So a modest SSBN shouldn't be surprising or unachievable for 2020s North Korea. A country which has succeeded in their ICBM program against all odds. Now add to that possible assistance from Russia or China, the former being renowned for their submarines, the latter building capable models as well, and the challenge becomes a checkbox for the DPRK to tick.

I for one am very curious about the intended missile though. And an SLBM is something very tricky to nail and perfect.

Now, with their land based ICBMs, this and possibly other SSBNs under construction, one doesn't have to guess long to figure out what will probably be next on their wishlist...
 

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