DPRK M-2020 Tank

alejandrogrossi said:
A channel of armour warfare
Preliminar tech info about the tank, Is in spanish. Sorry for that
One of the thins that he say, that the tank have a 4 crew turret with a 115 mm gun
Click to expand...
DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.
With all the electronic gizmos these days, i would think it would be possible to accurately measure the gun calibre from the pictures seen?
 
lancer21 said:
DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.
With all the electronic gizmos these days, i would think it would be possible to accurately measure the gun calibre from the pictures seen?
Click to expand...
1711415824146.png

Songun-ho​

This is a 125mm gun
from here
https://www.massimotessitori.alterv...kindigenoustanks/chonma-songun/songun-ho.html

M2020
seen don´t have the same gun.
Im not a expert, im only say what he said in the video.
The turret is a 4 crew maned, and se claim that he heven saw a 125mm manual loding.
1711416168279.png
Looking that gun is to small for a 125mm, maybe a long barrel
 
lancer21 said:
DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.
With all the electronic gizmos these days, i would think it would be possible to accurately measure the gun calibre from the pictures seen?
Click to expand...
Crew of 4 in the tank makes me think T-62 based. Which means 115mm gun.
 
Just because it MAY be derived from a T-62 doesn't automatically make it still a 115mm cannon since they can obviously accommodate a larger 125mm barrel (see any number of T-62 upgrades marketed over the years).

The M-2020's barrel is also noticeably distinct from other more recent North Korean designs like the Songun-915, with the bore evacuator being in a different position along the barrel (somewhat closer to the turret) plus the likely sighting mechanism added at the tip of the barrel.

Plus the vehicle's overall dimensions, road wheels, hull shape (especially the front which extends further forward with a completely different slope), etc are also quite different. Calling this newer tank "T-62 based" at this point would be the equivalent to calling late-production T-72 or early T-90 tanks "T-62 based" since that family of tanks also descends from it....
 
Eagle2009 said:
Just because it MAY be derived from a T-62 doesn't automatically make it still a 115mm cannon since they can obviously accommodate a larger 125mm barrel (see any number of T-62 upgrades marketed over the years).

The M-2020's barrel is also noticeably distinct from other more recent North Korean designs like the Songun-915, with the bore evacuator being in a different position along the barrel (somewhat closer to the turret) plus the likely sighting mechanism added at the tip of the barrel.

Plus the vehicle's overall dimensions, road wheels, hull shape (especially the front which extends further forward with a completely different slope), etc are also quite different. Calling this newer tank "T-62 based" at this point would be the equivalent to calling late-production T-72 or early T-90 tanks "T-62 based" since that family of tanks also descends from it....
Click to expand...
Fair enough, I was only considering the turret.

The turret is T62 based.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Fair enough, I was only considering the turret.

The turret is T62 based.
Click to expand...
What that even means? Various Chonma tank variants had completely new welded turrets for decades (plus new chassis with 6 wheels and so on).
If anything, the new tank might be a descendant of the 125mm Songun-915, new chassis with 7 wheels, new welded turret housing the 125mm gun etc.
 
lancer21 said:
DPRK has been building tanks with 125mm guns for decades, so i would find incredulous that they would return to 115mm for some reason.
Click to expand...
Well, the reason may be that Songun-915 was an attempt on a heavier, different tank more or less based on an incomplete t-72 TOT from the Soviet Union.
If M2020 simply continues the good old t-62 development line - 115mm gun is where it always was.
M2020 very clearly spots it: it's visually U-5TS, not the D-81T; the latter even without a thermal jacket just looks different.

There is nothing wrong with it anyway - while 115mm gun is weaker and much less accurate at extended ranges, it, on the other hand, can have long rods, just like 120 NATO. And for longer ranges, M2020 has those big ATGMs anyway.
 
lancer21 said:
What that even means? Various Chonma tank variants had completely new welded turrets for decades (plus new chassis with 6 wheels and so on).
If anything, the new tank might be a descendant of the 125mm Songun-915, new chassis with 7 wheels, new welded turret housing the 125mm gun etc.
Click to expand...

It means it's an attempt by North Korea to rehabilitate their menagerie of 115mm gun armed tanks once more. Maybe they'll finally decide to produce this one.
 
Ainen said:
There is nothing wrong with it anyway - while 115mm gun is weaker and much less accurate at extended ranges, it, on the other hand, can have long rods, just like 120 NATO. And for longer ranges, M2020 has those big ATGMs anyway.
Click to expand...
That's a really good point!

I'd rather have a 115mm gun with 750mm+ long rods rather than the ~500mm long rods out of the 125mm 2-piece ammo.
 
North Korea never received transfer of technology for T-72 because it never got license for it in first place and they only got at least one example of it between 1985 and 1992 from Iran that captured it from Iraq during Iran-Iraq war of 1980 to 1988 along possibly perhaps maybe T-80BV from Belarus in early 1990's.

All main battle tanks that North Korea has in active service do not have autoloader and have four crew members including Songun-ho that has 125mm smooth bore 2A46 cannon while do keep in mind if thermal sleeve/jacket/shroud was put on 115mm then it would be hard to distinguish between the two without scrutiny.

Another is since Songun-915 has no autoloader thus has 4th crew member that is human loader hence no limit on length of APFSDS which Soviet and Russian main battle tanks have due to carousel autoloader limited by inner turret ring diameter which is not the case with Songun-ho because it is manually loaded along turret ring such as of T-62 that is far larger than T-72 and bigger than both M60 and M1 Abrams.

Longest APFSDS projectile for 115mm is 640mm and can penetrate 500mm at 2km.

Those antitank guided missiles mounted on right side of turret on swivel mount are Bulsae-5 that are clones of Russian 9M133 Kornet and it is possible components of fire control system of that weapon are integrated into commanders cupola sight which includes 1PN79 series thermal optics, laser range finder and illuminator.

From tankograd discord:

Basic size comparison in millimeters for:
hull (w/o fenders) and turret length(w/o cage armor, cannon, ERA), tank and turret height (w/o cupola, optics, sensors), hull height:

6750 / 2850 / 2220 / 650 / 1570 - Chonma-ho [T-62]
6910 /2540 / 2190 / 750 / 1440 - T-72A
6930 / 3210 / 3000 / ???? / ???? - M60A1
7300 / 3650 / 2430 / 810 / 1620 - Chonma-216
7230 / 3750 / 2780 / 900 / 1880 - Songun-915
8450 / 4650 / 2630 / 1100 / 1630 - M2020 ( second most conservative )
9200 / 5000 / 2900 / 1190 / 1710 - M2020 ( initial conservative estimate )

* T-62 road wheels and tracks are used by both Chonma-216 and Songun-915.
* I assume M2020 is using road wheels and tracks from T-72 with former being smaller diameter than T-62's.
* possible turret bustle has length of 1250mm at most and at least 900mm depending on where it is measured from.
* M2020 in comparison has at least 1200mm length for possible turret bustle thus perhaps probable if considerably longer than that.

125mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A46 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4400 ~ 4600 - T-72 ( depending on model, turret cheeks thickness of T-72B versus T-72A aka T-72M1 ? )
4600 - Songun-915

115mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A20 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4200 - T-62 ( early model 212mm turret armor )

125mm or 115mm smooth bore cannon barrel outside of turret tank in millimeters ?
5000 - Chonma-216
5100 - M2020 ( most conservative est )
5600 - M2020 ( conservative estimate )
 
BullpupRafale said:
North Korea never received transfer of technology for T-72 because it never got license for it in first place and they only got at least one example of it between 1985 and 1992 from Iran that captured it from Iraq during Iran-Iraq war of 1980 to 1988 along possibly perhaps maybe T-80BV from Belarus in early 1990's.
Click to expand...
They actually did, in 1988.
But it's readily obvious from Songun history that tech transfer was at best incomplete by the time USSR collapsed.
BullpupRafale said:
All main battle tanks that North Korea has in active service do not have autoloader and have four crew members including Songun-ho that has 125mm smooth bore 2A46 cannon while do keep in mind if thermal sleeve/jacket/shroud was put on 115mm then it would be hard to distinguish between the two without scrutiny.
Click to expand...
Judging by periscopes&sights, Songun actually follows T-72 crew layout.
So it's still a mystery whether it does or doesn't.
Scott Kenny said:
That's a really good point!

I'd rather have a 115mm gun with 750mm+ long rods rather than the ~500mm long rods out of the 125mm 2-piece ammo.
Click to expand...
Great irony of Soviet AT gun design that by far the longest complete round is actually the 100mm smoothbore - i.e. towed anti-tank guns.
 
BullpupRafale said:
North Korea never received transfer of technology for T-72 because it never got license for it in first place and they only got at least one example of it between 1985 and 1992 from Iran that captured it from Iraq during Iran-Iraq war of 1980 to 1988 along possibly perhaps maybe T-80BV from Belarus in early 1990's.

All main battle tanks that North Korea has in active service do not have autoloader and have four crew members including Songun-ho that has 125mm smooth bore 2A46 cannon while do keep in mind if thermal sleeve/jacket/shroud was put on 115mm then it would be hard to distinguish between the two without scrutiny.

Another is since Songun-915 has no autoloader thus has 4th crew member that is human loader hence no limit on length of APFSDS which Soviet and Russian main battle tanks have due to carousel autoloader limited by inner turret ring diameter which is not the case with Songun-ho because it is manually loaded along turret ring such as of T-62 that is far larger than T-72 and bigger than both M60 and M1 Abrams.

Longest APFSDS projectile for 115mm is 640mm and can penetrate 500mm at 2km.

Those antitank guided missiles mounted on right side of turret on swivel mount are Bulsae-5 that are clones of Russian 9M133 Kornet and it is possible components of fire control system of that weapon are integrated into commanders cupola sight which includes 1PN79 series thermal optics, laser range finder and illuminator.

From tankograd discord:

Basic size comparison in millimeters for:
hull (w/o fenders) and turret length(w/o cage armor, cannon, ERA), tank and turret height (w/o cupola, optics, sensors), hull height:

6750 / 2850 / 2220 / 650 / 1570 - Chonma-ho [T-62]
6910 /2540 / 2190 / 750 / 1440 - T-72A
6930 / 3210 / 3000 / ???? / ???? - M60A1
7300 / 3650 / 2430 / 810 / 1620 - Chonma-216
7230 / 3750 / 2780 / 900 / 1880 - Songun-915
8450 / 4650 / 2630 / 1100 / 1630 - M2020 ( second most conservative )
9200 / 5000 / 2900 / 1190 / 1710 - M2020 ( initial conservative estimate )

* T-62 road wheels and tracks are used by both Chonma-216 and Songun-915.
* I assume M2020 is using road wheels and tracks from T-72 with former being smaller diameter than T-62's.
* possible turret bustle has length of 1250mm at most and at least 900mm depending on where it is measured from.
* M2020 in comparison has at least 1200mm length for possible turret bustle thus perhaps probable if considerably longer than that.

125mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A46 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4400 ~ 4600 - T-72 ( depending on model, turret cheeks thickness of T-72B versus T-72A aka T-72M1 ? )
4600 - Songun-915

115mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A20 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4200 - T-62 ( early model 212mm turret armor )

125mm or 115mm smooth bore cannon barrel outside of turret tank in millimeters ?
5000 - Chonma-216
5100 - M2020 ( most conservative est )
5600 - M2020 ( conservative estimate )
Click to expand...
Excellent analysis BP. So everything seems to lean towards the 125mm gun? (this is what most half-serious online analyses that i've read say as well). Also, it is sometimes alluded that the iranian Zulfiqar-3 might have some influence/input on the DPRK tank (as much as i secretely hope there is some TR-125 lineage there, which also have 7 wheels), what is your take on that?
 
Ainen said:
They actually did, in 1988.
But it's readily obvious from Songun history that tech transfer was at best incomplete by the time USSR collapsed.
Click to expand...
If that actually happened then it would have been discussed by Russian military enthusiasts themselves.
If that actually happened then there would be some documents proving it was licensed to North Korea.
lancer21 said:
Excellent analysis BP. So everything seems to lean towards the 125mm gun? (this is what most half-serious online analyses that i've read say as well). Also, it is sometimes alluded that the iranian Zulfiqar-3 might have some influence/input on the DPRK tank (as much as i secretely hope there is some TR-125 lineage there, which also have 7 wheels), what is your take on that?
Click to expand...
It could be that Chonma-216 has 115mm that is longer than original, improved variant to get closer to performance of 2A46.
 
D-81 without thermal jacket:
anons.JPG



it's a very distinctive gun even if naked.
 
lancer21 said:
Excellent analysis BP. So everything seems to lean towards the 125mm gun? (this is what most half-serious online analyses that i've read say as well). Also, it is sometimes alluded that the iranian Zulfiqar-3 might have some influence/input on the DPRK tank (as much as i secretely hope there is some TR-125 lineage there, which also have 7 wheels), what is your take on that?
Click to expand...
Are there arms connection between North Korea and Romania?
 
There were before 1990. Before the romanian so called revolution DPRK and RSR had good relations, and while officially nothing is said/revealed about military cooperation back in those days, me i'm 99% certain that the newer generation Chonmas, those with 6 road wheels, must have some TR-77/85 pedigree in them (i also think the same about the chinese Type-80/88 tanks). Even the fenders shape is similar. Some recent publications allege that DPRK was interested in IAR-93 and IAR-316 production etc, but the "revolution" stopped all this. Also they got ROMAN trucks for various MLRS systems. But probably the above examples are just scratching the surface.
 
The ROMAN trucks were mostly from China, which Romania approved their licensed production since the 80s, along with other equipment and cooperation. The chassis of Type-80/88 from China was being influenced by both T-72 (one obtained from Romania :D) and M-60

So at this moment we have no solid proof on Romania and North Korea cooperation in tank development right?
 
Looking through some romanian articles, everything points to very close relations between DPRK and RSR, including military. I'm reading that there were many relatively high end exports from RSR, including trucks, cars, industrial equipment etc, so it is very likely the ROMAN trucks were directly from Romania, or perhaps licenced in DPRK.

As to the Type-80, pretty sure it predates China actually getting that T-72 from RSR. My understanding that at least the 125mm only appeared on chinese tanks in the latter part of 1980s. One can assume it took time to study that T-72 and then create chinese equivalents of whatever systems they were interested in.

Finally, indeed there is no official proof of such tank cooperation between RSR and DPRK, but we can make educated guesses. Both were trying very hard to develop their military industries, so it defies belief there wouldn't have been close military cooperation.
 
Regarding the Type-80, they have already got some drawings of T-72 from "Friendly Eastern Europeans", which helped them to develop the basis of torsion bar suspension configuration for the 1226 project. The actual T-72 arrived later further helped/benefit China's tank development.

On trucks, China export a lot to North Korea, both new ones and 2nd hand. It is possible that China has transferred the production line to North Korea as the ROMAN design has become obsolete to them, FOC (due to their brotherhood), as there are not much thing North Korea can trade with Romania after 90s, due to collapsed economy and start of sanctions.
 
In what i wrote above, i was strictly refering to RSR-DPRK trade before 1990. After that the new romanian government was doing everything to kow-tow to the west, so obviously any military and otherwise cooperation with DPRK (and China for that matter) stopped.
 
Seems that the ROMAN MLRS didn't appear until late 90s. I mostly saw footages of bonneted Isuzu/Mitsubishi-based, MLRS in North Korea's parade in late 80s and early 90s.
 
What kind of engine do you all belive the M2020 has? they either had to develop something akin to the usual soviet 7TD engine from the T-62 and later Songun Ho but could it be possible for NK to develop a new clean slate engine design to cope with the larger size and certainly higher weight of the vehicle?
 
The engine would be among the easiest systems to build. Not ony DPRK has been building tank engines (and for all kinds of other vehicles) for decades, it is also likely they got their hands of all kinds of sample engines be it russian, chinese, even western (or romanian, before 1990 at least). So a 1200HP engine as it is said the tank has, incorporating all the above know-how, or even a more powerful one, is perfectly possible.
 
North Korea had at least one T-72 to analyze, reverse engineer and reproduce V46 engine that it used.
Also it can be improved like Yugoslavia did indigenously to 1000hp that was produced.
Later on up to 1200hp though never mass produced due to dissolution of SFRY.
 
makes sense, so in terms of powerplant North Korea is not found wanting, great for them that they can build it but i hope for them that they could build a better and more modern engine than the V46 in terms of layout/tech used(even slightly).
 
Or they can learn from China, buy commercial diesel and repurpose them......it will be much easier
 
ItalianAFDFail said:
makes sense, so in terms of powerplant North Korea is not found wanting, great for them that they can build it but i hope for them that they could build a better and more modern engine than the V46 in terms of layout/tech used(even slightly).
Click to expand...
V46 is adequate.
If they were to do modifications of design like SFRY did.
 
Basic size comparison in millimeters for:
hull (w/o fenders) and turret length(w/o cage armor, cannon, ERA), tank and turret height (w/o cupola, optics, sensors), hull height:

6750 / 2850 / 2220 / 650 / 1570 - Chonma-ho [T-62]
6910 /2540 / 2190 / 750 / 1440 - T-72A
6930 / 3210 / 3000 / ???? / ???? - M60A1
7300 / 3650 / 2430 / 810 / 1620 - Chonma-216
7230 / 3750 / 2780 / 900 / 1880 - Songun-915
8450 / 4650 / 2630 / 1100 / 1630 - M2020 ( second most conservative )
9200 / 5000 / 2900 / 1190 / 1710 - M2020 ( initial conservative estimate )

* T-62 road wheels and tracks are used by both Chonma-216 and Songun-915.
* I assume M2020 is using road wheels and tracks from T-72 with former being smaller diameter than T-62's.
* possible turret bustle has length of 1250mm at most and at least 900mm depending on where it is measured from.
* M2020 in comparison has at least 1200mm length for possible turret bustle thus perhaps probable if considerably longer than that.

125mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A46 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4400 ~ 4600 - T-72 ( depending on model, turret cheeks thickness of T-72B versus T-72A aka T-72M1 ? )
4600 - Songun-915

115mm smooth bore cannon barrel of 2A20 outside turret of tank in millimeters:
4200 - T-62 ( early model 212mm turret armor )

125mm or 115mm smooth bore cannon barrel outside of turret tank in millimeters ?
5000 - Chonma-216
5100 - M2020 ( most conservative estimate )
5600 - M2020 ( conservative estimate )
 
SK2 said:
Or they can learn from China, buy commercial diesel and repurpose them......it will be much easier
Click to expand...
Not a lot of commercial diesels in the 1000-1500hp range like you need for tanks. I think most of those that exist are boat engines, which tend to be heavy even for diesels.
 
Actually there are nowadays, with China being suggested to convert MTU396, imported as claimed train/boat engines to power Type 99 (tank) and Type 039 (subs). Similar products exist with Catepillar, Cummins, etc. The only trouble is a bit heavier and longer.

Fun fact: Some of the fanboys from China in early 2000s was not happy with the overall larger dimension of the Type 99 right from the beginning and claimed there will be a shorter version with more compact engines. Of course that did not exist.
 
Larger dimensions are usually good in long run.
Because it is easier to implement stronger engine.
 

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