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Daimler-Benz Project 'A" to 'F'

Chaoic16

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This is one of my favorite project done by Daimler-Benz. I have used search engine to see if there have been any discussion on this aircraft. Since there is no thread on this aircraft project, I wish to bring this interesting information with you people. this community appear to have great passion in sharing the know ledges, materials, and opinions about each of aircraft, so I see this as an opportunity for this community to bring many interesting discussion, materials such as data/blueprint, and opinion about Daimler-Benz Project 'A' to 'F'.

Here is little information on Daimler-Benz Project 'A' to 'F':
http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mldbce.html

(Project A)
http://www.luft46.com/db/dbbomba.html
http://www.anigrand.com/AA4023_DB_Project-A.htm

(Project B)
http://www.luft46.com/db/dbbombb.html
http://www.anigrand.com/AA4001_DB_Project-B.htm
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/DaimlerBenzProjectBPage.htm

(Project C)
http://www.luft46.com/db/dbbombc.html
http://home.online.no/~torp4/db_p_c.html

(Project E)
http://www.luft46.com/db/dbbombe.html

(Project F)
http://www.luft46.com/db/dbbombf.html
http://www.luft46.com/mrart/mrdbf.html

This project would of been German's first mini flying aircraft carrier that would carry many small combat aircaft under the wing toward the target. If this project was bought to alive and began the evolution into bigger planes with different upgrades, this aircraft would have the potiental to become Germans' first flying aircraft carrier. That is why this project is one of my favorite becuase this project is one of most vivid project I have ever seen!


Chaoic out...
 

borovik

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See also an interesting posting Jemiba: "take-off method for fast aircraft" in the Patent Pending-
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5108.0.html
 

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Chaoic16

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I thought I would bump this pages because I have been looking and looknig for any more information on this project. This project have been extremely interesting to me so I am hoping that one of you might have more information and documents on this project.


Chaoic out...
 

RdsG46

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Luftfahrt International N.24 1977 p.3797-3820 "Schnellstbombenträger": Factory drawings, project description, calculated specifications.
 

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Chaoic16

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Thank you VERY MUCH for these drawings! I added them to my library, it was very hard to find these drawing and 3 view plans.

:)


Chaoic out...
 

hesham

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From Ali Nuove 11/1957.
 

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hesham

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From Waffen Arsenal; Mistel The Piggy-Back Aircraft of the Luftwaffe.
 

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newsdeskdan

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The 'Daimler-Benz' projects, aside from the fact that they weren't designated 'A' to 'F' by the Germans, were actually designed by Focke-Wulf (see attached) as I've said elsewhere. However, it's never been disputed that the Focke-Wulf designs were based on a concept originated by Daimler-Benz - namely that a handful of very fast bombers could be used to devastate RAF and USAAF air bases without fear of being shot down. The difficulty of how to get such bombers airborne when all of Germany's long concrete runways had been destroyed was to be overcome using a large carrier aircraft which would get the bomber aloft (so it didn't have to use its own relatively small and weak landing gear) then return to pick up another bomber and do it all over again. The carrier could also be used to carry a small fleet of suicide aircraft if necessary.
 

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newsdeskdan

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It's never really been clear just how far the look of Focke-Wulf's designs reflected what Fritz Nallinger had envisioned for the concept when he came up with it in 1944. However, I recently discovered a rather low quality Daimler-Benz drawing which sheds some light on this point. Here's a taster - the full thing will appear in my next Luftwaffe bookazine.
 

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Schneiderman

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Maj Jack Stewart of the Mayo Composite Aircraft Company, and agents working on his behalf, held extensive talks with German officials, including Udet, in late 1937 through to the summer of 1938 with a view to selling the patent rights to the Composite Aircraft method. They were unsuccessful but obviously the idea was of considerable interest.
 

newsdeskdan

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Schneiderman said:
Maj Jack Stewart of the Mayo Composite Aircraft Company, and agents working on his behalf, held extensive talks with German officials, including Udet, in late 1937 through to the summer of 1938 with a view to selling the patent rights to the Composite Aircraft method. They were unsuccessful but obviously the idea was of considerable interest.

Indeed. Robert Forsyth's excellent but lamentably long out of print 2001 book 'Mistel: German Composite Aircraft and Operations 1942-1945' kicks off with a couple of chapters acknowledging that the British got there first (although Hugo Junkers evidently filed a patent for a composite design in 1929 under the heading 'start of flying machines'). It covers the whole topic in detail, including most composite 'secret projects', but it doesn't mention the 'Daimler-Benz' projects.
 

Schneiderman

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Yes, the composite concept had arisen many times prior to Mayo's patents, the key part of which was a range of methods to ensure safe, positive separation. That alone was not really sufficient to enable him to licence global patent rights although he held great expectations.
 

newsdeskdan

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Schneiderman said:
Yes, the composite concept had arisen many times prior to Mayo's patents, the key part of which was a range of methods to ensure safe, positive separation. That alone was not really sufficient to enable him to licence global patent rights although he held great expectations.

I'm aware of many articles on it, not to mention various chapters in various books, but is there actually a book out there anywhere dedicated to just the Short-Mayo composite story?

Regarding the 'Daimler-Benz' projects, as much as it is an interesting application of the Short-Mayo composite principle, the more I learn about the state of Germany at the time they were being worked on by both Daimler-Benz and Focke-Wulf, the more I wonder why on earth they bothered.
 

hesham

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You are my hero my dear Dan,

I discovered it before,when I saw this drawing,but I afraid from no one couldn't
believe me.
 

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sienar

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newsdeskdan said:
Schneiderman said:
Yes, the composite concept had arisen many times prior to Mayo's patents, the key part of which was a range of methods to ensure safe, positive separation. That alone was not really sufficient to enable him to licence global patent rights although he held great expectations.

I'm aware of many articles on it, not to mention various chapters in various books, but is there actually a book out there anywhere dedicated to just the Short-Mayo composite story?

Regarding the 'Daimler-Benz' projects, as much as it is an interesting application of the Short-Mayo composite principle, the more I learn about the state of Germany at the time they were being worked on by both Daimler-Benz and Focke-Wulf, the more I wonder why on earth they bothered.

Especially considering that a large carrier aircraft, meant to get around the lack of runways, is arguably a more vulnerable target than the runways themselves. Just how would they have camouflaged the carriers on the side of a makeshift runway? How long would the takeoff run have been? Lots of issues that make the concept very dubious.
 

newsdeskdan

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sienar said:
newsdeskdan said:
Schneiderman said:
Yes, the composite concept had arisen many times prior to Mayo's patents, the key part of which was a range of methods to ensure safe, positive separation. That alone was not really sufficient to enable him to licence global patent rights although he held great expectations.

I'm aware of many articles on it, not to mention various chapters in various books, but is there actually a book out there anywhere dedicated to just the Short-Mayo composite story?

Regarding the 'Daimler-Benz' projects, as much as it is an interesting application of the Short-Mayo composite principle, the more I learn about the state of Germany at the time they were being worked on by both Daimler-Benz and Focke-Wulf, the more I wonder why on earth they bothered.

Especially considering that a large carrier aircraft, meant to get around the lack of runways, is arguably a more vulnerable target than the runways themselves. Just how would they have camouflaged the carriers on the side of a makeshift runway? How long would the takeoff run have been? Lots of issues that make the concept very dubious.

The carrier aircraft's size, the undeveloped Daimler-Benz turbojet that was meant to power the bomber, the mid-air separation process - the concept does have many flaws. Even if Germany had been able to control its own airspace and had DB been on the point of being able to freeze the design of its turbojet ready for production, just building and flight testing the whole contraption would have taken years.
 

galgot

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Many of these late war concepts, that make the joy of "luft'46", are completely undoable.
Some companies kept their enginers at work on any kind of stupid projects that could please the nazi admin, to prevent them from being incorporated and send to Ostfront.
3rd reich was chaos.
 

Schneiderman

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newsdeskdan said:
I'm aware of many articles on it, not to mention various chapters in various books, but is there actually a book out there anywhere dedicated to just the Short-Mayo composite story?

No, I don't believe that there is, but I am seriously considering whether I have unearthed sufficient material on the subject to justify writing one.
 

Schneiderman

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newsdeskdan said:
The carrier aircraft's size, the undeveloped Daimler-Benz turbojet that was meant to power the bomber, the mid-air separation process - the concept does have many flaws. Even if Germany had been able to control its own airspace and had DB been on the point of being able to freeze the design of its turbojet ready for production, just building and flight testing the whole contraption would have taken years.

The basic principle, as developed by Short Bros and Mayo with the experimental composite, was proven to be pretty flawless but developing it to be a truly viable commercial or military project was quite another story. The benefits were shown, one by one, to be far less than initially claimed and a range of potential operational complexities were soon apparent. A nice idea but lacking any compelling merit.....as with so many other innovations.
 

newsdeskdan

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galgot said:
Many of these late war concepts, that make the joy of "luft'46", are completely undoable.
Some companies kept their enginers at work on any kind of stupid projects that could please the nazi admin, to prevent them from being incorporated and send to Ostfront.
3rd reich was chaos.

It seems logical to assume that this was the case but the evidence seldom bears it out (the exception being the Heinkel Julia - where internal company correspondence overtly states that workers in the mock-up shop were being kept on for an otherwise long-since cancelled project in Feb 1945 purely to prevent them from being drafted).
In the case of the 'Daimler-Benz' projects, the prime motivating force behind it was Fritz Nallinger and Erich Ueberlacker of Daimler-Benz. Nallinger was technical director of one of Germany's most important and war-critical companies and Uebelacker had the valuable occupation of turbojet engineer. They were aged 47 and 46 respectively - neither of them likely to be sent to the Ostfront.
At Focke-Wulf, the engineer in charge of working out the nuts and bolts practicalities of the concept was Oberingenieur Herbert Wolff - identified in company records as one of the 17 most important men in the firm, ahead of Hans Multhopp, Otto Pabst and Heinz Conradis. It seems unlikely that he would have been sent to the front either.
In any case, the project didn't really go far enough to eat up much resource - there just wasn't time for it - but the men who worked on it seem to have earnestly believed that it was an idea worth pursuing. Why they should have thought that is really quite inexplicable.
 

galgot

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Thanks for these infos.
When I see some of these projects, I some time think "but why?…" :)

I remember reading a US report for 1942 or 1943 analyzing the german aircraft production and types in service. Can’t remember in which mag it was published now…
But anyway, it seemed highly critical about it and not impressed at all.
Pointing the wasted research and production resources due to the number of highly specialized types developed and entering service (like the Hs-129, or the Fw-189) with poor performances. Was like the industry was working to make every possible types demanded by an air force staff more preoccupied by having any "toy" they wanted instead of having the practical tool to win a war.
Comparison with the US industry of the time was very interesting.
 

newsdeskdan

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galgot said:
Thanks for these infos.
When I see some of these projects, I some time think "but why?…" :)

I remember reading a US report for 1942 or 1943 analyzing the german aircraft production and types in service. Can’t remember in which mag it was published now…
But anyway, it seemed highly critical about it and not impressed at all.
Pointing the wasted research and production resources due to the number of highly specialized types developed and entering service (like the Hs-129, or the Fw-189) with poor performances. Was like the industry was working to make every possible types demanded by an air force staff more preoccupied by having any "toy" they wanted instead of having the practical tool to win a war.
Comparison with the US industry of the time was very interesting.

The Allies were critical of the German aircraft manufacturers during the early to mid-war period but reports circa 1945 are actually quite glowing in their praise of German efforts to disperse production. American postwar analysis of ULTRA (June 1945) shows how the Allies became unable to identify specific centres of production to attack and indicates a large-scale buildup of German fighters. The only thing preventing the revival of the Luftwaffe by late 1944 was the fuel shortage created by Allied bombing and the numerous problems arising from it such as cancellation of all training flights to preserve stocks.
Types such as the Hs 129 and Fw 189 were developed at a time when their performance was actually acceptable - it was simply the case that efforts to replace them with anything other than modified versions of mass produced fighters were abandoned as R&D became increasingly focused on those fighters.
I think if you look at German 'projects' as a whole, it does seem as though a great deal of time and effort was expended on concepts that were doomed to failure. However, if you look at the developments year on year it's possible to see big gaps between the major competitions. Far-fetched concepts were usually quickly abandoned after very little work had been done on them and the vast majority of both the RLM's and the manufacturers' time was devoted to full production types. Discussions about the He 219, for example, consumed hundreds of hours over the course of at least a year.
 

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Very much in agreement with you about the German production of planes which only collapsed in the last months of war, even only a few weeks ! Pierre Clostermann already points this out in 1947 in his excellent book "Le Grand Cirque".

Tonton
 

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newsdeskdan said:
In any case, the project didn't really go far enough to eat up much resource - there just wasn't time for it - but the men who worked on it seem to have earnestly believed that it was an idea worth pursuing. Why they should have thought that is really quite inexplicable.

Perhaps among other things they thought it might be a way of maximising the use of certain Autobahn airstrips?
 

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newsdeskdan said:
It seems logical to assume that this was the case but the evidence seldom bears it out (the
exception being the Heinkel Julia - ... /quote]

Really interesting to hear, but maybe rare, because it may have been dangerous for those signing such documents ?
Be that as it may, that's an assumption, we had here several times before (and more than once, the culprit had been
me !), though it generally doesn't really fit into the discussion of a specific type, it may be a theme worth discussing.
I've started a thread here https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31532.msg347630.html#msg347630 ,
maybe it can lead to a reasonable discussion.
 

newsdeskdan

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Grey Havoc said:
newsdeskdan said:
In any case, the project didn't really go far enough to eat up much resource - there just wasn't time for it - but the men who worked on it seem to have earnestly believed that it was an idea worth pursuing. Why they should have thought that is really quite inexplicable.

Perhaps among other things they thought it might be a way of maximising the use of certain Autobahn airstrips?

The project documents, if I recall correctly, reference 'rough' or 'improvised' airfields so I suppose it's possible. But just getting the thing to the point where it could take off at all (i.e. designed, built and full of fuel) would have been near impossible.
 

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This should work:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31532.msg347630.html#msg347630
 

Jemiba

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newsdeskdan said:
Jemiba, I can't seem to access that thread!

Sorry, had and have some problems today, e.g. I cannot move my answer out from the quote in my first post.
But the link should work now.
 

hesham

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From; Secret Nazi Aircraft 1939 -1945 Luftwaffe's Advanced Aircraft Projects,

there was a Daimler-Benz design between them called P 100/003,that means
there had existing of a series from P 1 to P 100 ?!.
 

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hesham

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You are my hero my dear Dan,

I discovered it before,when I saw this drawing,but I afraid from no one couldn't
believe me.
For This Focke-Wulf designs (0310256.03),it was appeared in three different
tail arrangements.

Jet Planes of the Third Reich - The Secret Projects-volume two
 

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