Could it be time for shields to return to the infantry?

"Modern" trench warfare is unique to this conflict and not elsewhere
 
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Byeman said:
Again, for trench warfare and not mobile infantry. None of those designs would work in an APC or on a march
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Pay attention to the opening text of the topic...

"Looking at the scenario of the Ukrainian war, the old negative perception about the use of shields by infantry soldiers seems to need a reevaluation. Shield in today's modern trench warfare, would be highly interesting. Analyze the complementarity of doctrine that could be implemented in an entrenched soldier, he does not need to run, but rather move and protect himself from grenades, artillery shrapnel and trench invasions by enemy infantry... this seems to be the new reality there..."
 
Scott Kenny said:
Given the relative lack of competence shown on both sides, I'd argue that this is one of the most abnormal fights we will ever see.

Had the Russian Airborne been halfway competent, Ukraine would be a province of Russia less than 12 hours after operation start.




Exactly, this is highly atypical combat happening right now. Just like how Afghanistan was highly atypical (due to engagement ranges).

DO NOT make equipment decisions based on atypical scenarios!





It also GREATLY shifts point of impact when you hand a 10+lb weight off the barrel. Crud, POI shifts a good 6" or more just from hanging a bayonet on the front...
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I don't believe it is incompetence on the part of Ukraine or Russia, but rather a new reality when there is relative parity of forces.

The old manuals talked about concentrating forces, but today, any small concentration is quickly identified.
I think the attached text is a very well considered analysis... I don't believe that the Ukrainian trench war will not happen again.

mwi.westpoint.edu

The Return of the Tactical Crisis - Modern War Institute

“Despite the requirement to achieve mass and concentration for decisive results, the greater lethality of weapons dictated a contradictory need for dispersion. Much of the history of modern warfare can be written as a function of attempts to reconcile these seemingly contradictory elements.” —...
mwi.westpoint.edu mwi.westpoint.edu
 
carvalho2008 said:
areasnotcoveredbybodyarmorplates.gif
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One problem is how heavy the extra armor is.

Rifle-rated shoulder plates are ~4-6lbs each. There's no way to put rifle plates over the trapezius muscles, but you can put pistol-and-fragment-rated soft armor (Level 3A) there.

Adding more width to the plates, like ESAPI, adds more weight. I have a plate carrier with 10x12" front and rear pockets and 6" square side pockets. I don't have the side plates yet, and the front and back plates are already about as much as I want to carry.


Also, you need flexibility. You can get away with a mostly-solid set of plates around the ribs, but not down the abdomen. So you need your plates to overlap down the abdomen and back if you want that protection. Except that it's extremely dangerous to overlap plates on the back, that's a great way to get paralyzed if you fall on it. You land on the one plate and it slams the overlapped plate into your spine 2". Same reason you don't wear a pistol in the small of your back across the spine.
 
carvalho2008 said:
I don't believe it is incompetence on the part of Ukraine or Russia, but rather a new reality when there is relative parity of forces.
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That's the thing, there should not have been relative parity of forces in Ukraine.

The attempted coup-de-main by VDV failed, surprising all western observers. Coup-de-main is what the VDV exists to do!


And then the rest of the attacks were against a Ukrainian Army with their command and control intact, which meant that even if the Russians were a bit above parity in numbers, they were grossly outgunned. FFS, a normal attack into a defended position requires at least a 3:1 numerical advantage to succeed! A platoon can hold off a company, a company can hold off a battalion.


carvalho2008 said:
The old manuals talked about concentrating forces, but today, any small concentration is quickly identified.
I think the attached text is a very well considered analysis... I don't believe that the Ukrainian trench war will not happen again.

mwi.westpoint.edu

The Return of the Tactical Crisis - Modern War Institute

“Despite the requirement to achieve mass and concentration for decisive results, the greater lethality of weapons dictated a contradictory need for dispersion. Much of the history of modern warfare can be written as a function of attempts to reconcile these seemingly contradictory elements.” —...
mwi.westpoint.edu mwi.westpoint.edu
Click to expand...
Thing is, the Infantry have dug in ever since 1914. Always. As soon as the grunts stop walking, they start digging.
 

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