Consolidated R2Y "Liberator Liner"

fightingirish

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Do anyone know anything about the Consolidated R2Y1?
I seems it was a transporter / cargo aircraft for the US Navy after WWII.
The designation might be wrong also. ???
Links: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=R2Y1&w=all&s=int
EDit: see next post
 
Re: Consolidated R2Y1 - A US Navy transporter / cargo aircraft?

The R2Y-1 was the Consolidated Model 39 Liberator Liner (redesignated as Consolidated-Vultee Model 104).
 

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What is the difference between the commercialized Model 33 (a B-32 Dominator derivative -- see top photo) and the Model 39 (bottom photo)? Both projects appear generally identical to me.

While the Model 39 is a B-24 Liberator development, it uses the the vertical fin of the B-32. Further, the design study serialization is not chronological, as the commercialized Model 33 appeared in May 1943, after the commercialized Model 39. I'm a bit confused.
 

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circle-5 said:
What is the difference between the commercialized Model 33 (a B-32 Dominator derivative -- see top photo) and the Model 39 (bottom photo)? Both projects appear generally identical to me.

While the Model 39 is a B-24 Liberator development, it uses the the vertical fin of the B-32. Further, the design study serialization is not chronological, as the commercialized Model 33 appeared in May 1943, after the commercialized Model 39. I'm a bit confused.

The Model 33 is considerably larger with a 12' diameter fuselage and 135' wingspan.

The vertical tail of the Model 39 is from the PB4Y-2 Privateer.

As a B-24 development the Model 39 was preceded by the Model 32, which in profile looked very similar to the Avro York,
however with a round rather than square cross-section fuselage.
 
joncarrfarrelly said:
circle-5 said:
What is the difference between the commercialized Model 33 (a B-32 Dominator derivative -- see top photo) and the Model 39 (bottom photo)? Both projects appear generally identical to me.

While the Model 39 is a B-24 Liberator development, it uses the the vertical fin of the B-32. Further, the design study serialization is not chronological, as the commercialized Model 33 appeared in May 1943, after the commercialized Model 39. I'm a bit confused.

The Model 33 is considerably larger with a 12' diameter fuselage and 135' wingspan.

The vertical tail of the Model 39 is from the PB4Y-2 Privateer.

As a B-24 development the Model 39 was preceded by the Model 32, which in profile looked very similar to the Avro York,
however with a round rather than square cross-section fuselage.

Thank you for un-confusing me. I certainly did not realize the Model 33 was so large. Makes sense now.
 
The 39 used more than just the vertical tail. It also used the horiontal tail & wings & engines, IIRC. It was more of a direct development of the Privateer than a Liberator. The 33 was essentially a new fuselage using the wings, engines & tail of the B-29, as the B-32 was originally intended to use the B-29 tail as well.


joncarrfarrelly said:
circle-5 said:
What is the difference between the commercialized Model 33 (a B-32 Dominator derivative -- see top photo) and the Model 39 (bottom photo)? Both projects appear generally identical to me.

While the Model 39 is a B-24 Liberator development, it uses the the vertical fin of the B-32. Further, the design study serialization is not chronological, as the commercialized Model 33 appeared in May 1943, after the commercialized Model 39. I'm a bit confused.

The Model 33 is considerably larger with a 12' diameter fuselage and 135' wingspan.

The vertical tail of the Model 39 is from the PB4Y-2 Privateer.

As a B-24 development the Model 39 was preceded by the Model 32, which in profile looked very similar to the Avro York,
however with a round rather than square cross-section fuselage.
 
I'm completely at a loss for a three-view arrangement of the Liberator Liner... Any leads?
 
There is a very pleasing 3-view (& brief account) of the XR2Y-1 in the excellent & just-published book "American Military Transport Aircraft since 1925" by E R Johnson, illustrated by Lloyd S Jones.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
I'm completely at a loss for a three-view arrangement of the Liberator Liner... Any leads?
No three-views, but hopefully helpful, a couple of cutaways posted at the San Diego Air & Space Museum (SDASM) Flickr Photostream, plus a whole bunch of photos, including some of the interior and cockpit (link):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7585835628/in/photostream/
7585835628_6446824ffd.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7585835708/
7585835708_cda97e74d7.jpg
 
Somewhere in my stash I have some old "Fact Files" I think they're called, put out by Lloyd S. Jones many years ago. One of the Fact Files is a 3 or 5 view drawing of the R2Y. I'm in the process of moving and Lord only knows where they are, but I may have a copy fairly handy in my box of Matchbox PB4Y-2 and B-29 fuselage for my R2Y scratchbuild. If I can locate it, I'll try to get it posted. OTOH since Jones illustrated the aforementioned book, it might be the same drawing.
 
IIRC, the B-32 single tail and entire empennage, was B-29. The production B-32 heightened the fin, tho in a different manner from the B-50.
 
foiling said:
There is a very pleasing 3-view (& brief account) of the XR2Y-1 in the excellent & just-published book "American Military Transport Aircraft since 1925" by E R Johnson, illustrated by Lloyd S Jones.

Just published?? You mean the great Lloyd S. Jones is still around? Or rather, is are the pics reprinted from an old Aero book he did back in the sixties or something?

Sounds great anyway!
 
Vol. 1 of Convair Secret Projects has very good documentation on this one as well as most of the seaplanes and large landplanes that came out of San Diego before things were transferred to teh Fort Worth plant.
 
I found that 3 view I mentioned. Since I'm technologically challenged and have trouble posting images, :) if you'll PM me your email address
I'll email it to you and not only will you have it, but you can post it.

Stargazer2006 said:
I'm completely at a loss for a three-view arrangement of the Liberator Liner... Any leads?
 
Hi Stargazer2006. Sorry not to reply sooner, but I expected members more knowledgable than me - & that is most of them - would have responded to your comments. E R Johnson has produced several books on American aircraft that I like very much, all illustrated by Lloyd Jones. I would have assumed that the drawings were done specifically for these books as they include several very unusual aircraft that would perhaps not often have been illustrated before this, such as the 'Liberator Liner'.
I have the following books in the 'series': "American Military Transport Aircraft since 1925" (2013), "American Attack Aircraft since 1926" (2008), "American Flying Boats & Amphibious Aircraft" (2010). I highly recommend them all. There is also a volume "United States Naval Aviation 1919 - 1941" (2011) but I have not purchased this one yet, as it is low on my list of priority books at present.
 
Thanks a lot famvburg! I'm sending you a PM with my e-mail address right away.

Thanks foiling. I know most of these but not the most recent title you've mentioned. I'll definitely go and check it out.
 
Vol. 1 of Convair Secret Projects has very good documentation on this one as well as most of the seaplanes and large landplanes that came out of San Diego before things were transferred to teh Fort Worth plant.
I have volumes 1 and 2 of books titled Convair Advanced Designs by Robert E. Bradley.
Volume 1 published by Specialty Press in 2010.
Volume 2 published by by Crecy in 2013.

With difference in title are those the same books or different books?
 
IIRC, the B-32 single tail and entire empennage, was B-29. The production B-32 heightened the fin, tho in a different manner from the B-50.
I think that the AAF forced Convair to splice a B-29 tail onto a B-32 in a desperate, and kind of humiliating, attempt to cure stability problems with the airplane. The fielded airplane had an almost comically tall fin, but I'd be surprised if it was based on the Boeing design.
I've read that Convair lost interest in the B-32 program once it was clear that the B-29 would be built in quantity and that progress on the program slowed dramatically.
One question I think is interesting is why Convair and the USN pressed forward with development of the Privateer rather than develop a patrol bomber variant of the B-32.
Same question would apply to the Liberator Liner.
 
Same question would apply to the Liberator Liner.
I assume though that a lack of airline interest and backing in the R2Y compared with the Constellation and DC-4 meant that Convair had little choice but to cease work on it.
 
One question I think is interesting is why Convair and the USN pressed forward with development of the Privateer rather than develop a patrol bomber variant of the B-32.
Because what the USN were looking for was a long range patrol bomber i.e. something capable of operating over long distances of the Pacific Ocean at low to medium altitudes searching out the Japanese fleet (reconnaissance being more important than bombing at that stage). In early 1942 all they had was the slow, poorly armed PBY Catalina and the prospect of low volumes of PBM Mariners and PB2Y Coronados, which in their early versions were similarly not very combat effective.

So following a deal with the USAAF, the USN got its first PB4Y-1 (AKA B-24D) in Aug 1942 and they went into action in the Solomons in early 1943. By mid-1943 the USN was looking for something better to carry all the new electronic gear coming into service, with a better defensive armament and simpler engines (the turbo-superchargers were not needed for the altitudes USN search aircraft flew at). And so the PB4Y-2 was born by what was supposed to be minimal changes to the PB4Y-1 but ended up being about 50% different. A prototype was flying by Sept 1943, a production contract awarded in Oct with production beginning March 1944 and the first operational squadron reached Tinian in the Marianas to fly its first missions on 10 Jan 1945.

In mid-1943 the B-32 was only at the prototype stage with many problems to be resolved and it wasn't clear at that stage that it would be going ahead. On top of that it was conceived as a high altitude bomber. The USN didn't need the pressurization nor the turbo-supercharged engines and the additional weight that implied. And its production ended up lagging 6 months or more behind the Privateer. And add to that that squadrons were able to convert from PB4Y-1 to PB4Y-2 without any great difficulty.

So what is not for the USN to like about the PB4Y-2 Privateer.
 
Same question would apply to the Liberator Liner.
I assume though that a lack of airline interest and backing in the R2Y compared with the Constellation and DC-4 meant that Convair had little choice but to cease work on it.
Well firstly the USN, for whom it was developed in the first place, decided they didn't like it. Wing spars intruded into the fuselage, weight limitations due the bomber undercarriage, estimated takeoff performance & lack of growth potential. A second aircraft was built and leased to American for experimental cargo use. But as no orders were then forthcoming from anyone, military or civil, the whole project was wound up and the aircraft ordered scrapped in Sept 1945.

Being based around the Privateer then it would have been restricted to flying at lower levels that competing aircraft. Was it even pressurized?
 
IIRC, the B-32 single tail and entire empennage, was B-29. The production B-32 heightened the fin, tho in a different manner from the B-50.
I think that the AAF forced Convair to splice a B-29 tail onto a B-32 in a desperate, and kind of humiliating, attempt to cure stability problems with the airplane. The fielded airplane had an almost comically tall fin, but I'd be surprised if it was based on the Boeing design.
I've read that Convair lost interest in the B-32 program once it was clear that the B-29 would be built in quantity and that progress on the program slowed dramatically.
One question I think is interesting is why Convair and the USN pressed forward with development of the Privateer rather than develop a patrol bomber variant of the B-32.
Same question would apply to the Liberator Liner.
The Privateer had the advantage of a relatively high amount of commonality with the B-24/
P4Y-1 Liberator, and the appropriate performance for a land-based long range Patrol /ASW/Elint aircraft. Existing production lines could easily and economically be adapted, and it didn't take resources away from the super high priority B-29 effort. Check into how many B-29s under construction and under contract to get a feel for what was being planned.
The single-fin tails of the Privateer and Liberator Liner owe more to the B-24N, expected to be the last series of production B-24s.
 
The single finned Liberator / Privateer models can be traced back to wind tunnel testing by Consolidated in 1942 and then trials by Ford in early 1943 leading to the XB-24K. The USN decision to proceed with the single tailed Privateer predates the USAAF decision to move to the B-24N by some 6 months.

Initially the 3 PB4Y-2 Privateer prototypes flew with twin tails from Sept 1943 (and the first pair with standard B-24 engines). The second was refitted with a C-54 tail and the third (which had the PB4Y-2 engines) with the definitive tall tail which was standard on the production aircraft from March 1944.

One of the early LB-30 Liberator II supplied to the RAF in July 1942 (serial number AL504) and used as a special transport by Churchill, being named Commando, was returned to the US in Sept 1943 and modified with a single tail. It flew again in March 1944 and was lost over the Atlantic near the Azores in March 1945 with no survivors.


So a lot of work had been carried out on the single tailed variants before the USAAF decided that the future was the B-24N in April 1944.
 

Consolidated R2Y was an experimental passengers - cargo aircraft for Navy .

 
The single finned Liberator / Privateer models can be traced back to wind tunnel testing by Consolidated in 1942 and then trials by Ford in early 1943 leading to the XB-24K. The USN decision to proceed with the single tailed Privateer predates the USAAF decision to move to the B-24N by some 6 months.

Initially the 3 PB4Y-2 Privateer prototypes flew with twin tails from Sept 1943 (and the first pair with standard B-24 engines). The second was refitted with a C-54 tail and the third (which had the PB4Y-2 engines) with the definitive tall tail which was standard on the production aircraft from March 1944.

One of the early LB-30 Liberator II supplied to the RAF in July 1942 (serial number AL504) and used as a special transport by Churchill, being named Commando, was returned to the US in Sept 1943 and modified with a single tail. It flew again in March 1944 and was lost over the Atlantic near the Azores in March 1945 with no survivors.


So a lot of work had been carried out on the single tailed variants before the USAAF decided that the future was the B-24N in April 1944.
Thanks. I wasn't too sure about the chronology.
 
This is probably the first and only bomber to commercial conversion where the cargo aircraft had a skinnier fuselage than the bomber.
 
From this book.
 

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From Western Flying 1944/5.
 

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I love the fact that you could just back a standard flatbed truck up to the cargo door and unload it.
That was actually a pretty common feature of US cargo planes at the time:

C 54 during Berlin airlift

110303-D-LN615-004.JPG


C-47 Berlin airlift
HighFlight-BerlinAirlift2-C-46s-onRamp-1024x817.jpg
 
A few previously unshared photos of the Liberator Liner, mostly from the SDASM archives:
 

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