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Chengdu J-20 news and analysis Part III

Blitzo

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Let's us remind for a min watching this all the aggressive diatribe posted against those that maintained early on that this fighter has gigantic proportions...

Yeah and those who maintained that early on are still incorrect lol.
It's not a 22-23 meter long aircraft, and in TYOOL 2020 I can't believe anyone would still beat this horse, there's no flesh on it left at this point.
 

Fluff

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I come here for the informed debate, in a polite and educational manner, what do you come here for??
 

Blitzo

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I come here for the informed debate, in a polite and educational manner, what do you come here for??

Agreed, but snarky jabs at something which has long been settled is very much not in the spirit of a debates which are polite and educational.
The topic of J-20's size and length has been something which is nearing a decade long discussion now, which in all honesty has been settled about 6-7 years ago at earliest, and definitively closed with comparison pictures like this (below) about 3-4 years ago.

At a certain point, continued raising of the same disproven talking point can no longer be considered a discussion in good faith and can only be responded to in equal manner.


compare 1.jpg compare 2.jpg
 

helmutkohl

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a few years ago,
I am pretty sure there was a pic circulating
of a J-20 (maybe a mock up) at an air show display or something
that had a sign with its official dimensions.
 

helmutkohl

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a few years ago,
I am pretty sure there was a pic circulating
of a J-20 (maybe a mock up) at an air show display or something
that had a sign with its official dimensions.
You sure not mistaking it with J-31 ?

it was definitely the J-20 because the pic was used in context with that debate over the J-20's length.
its somewhere on keypublishing
 

Blitzo

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a few years ago,
I am pretty sure there was a pic circulating
of a J-20 (maybe a mock up) at an air show display or something
that had a sign with its official dimensions.
You sure not mistaking it with J-31 ?

it was definitely the J-20 because the pic was used in context with that debate over the J-20's length.
its somewhere on keypublishing

I don't recall any official display of J-20 at an airshow that describes its length.

The only official brochure of J-20 we've had afaik is this one, from Zhuhai airshow 2018 but it doesn't describe the aircraft's dimensions, only its general role

official.jpg


The other thing you might be thinking of is this non-official render and some specs about a hypothetical carrier based J-20, but this is not official and a fan made piece of art.

Apart from these two I'm not sure what possible brochure you might be talking about. Fwiw, if it exists, I can't imagine the rest of the PLA watching community would've missed it.

nah.jpg
 

latenlazy

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a few years ago,
I am pretty sure there was a pic circulating
of a J-20 (maybe a mock up) at an air show display or something
that had a sign with its official dimensions.
You sure not mistaking it with J-31 ?

it was definitely the J-20 because the pic was used in context with that debate over the J-20's length.
its somewhere on keypublishing

I don't recall any official display of J-20 at an airshow that describes its length.

The only official brochure of J-20 we've had afaik is this one, from Zhuhai airshow 2018 but it doesn't describe the aircraft's dimensions, only its general role

View attachment 643250


The other thing you might be thinking of is this non-official render and some specs about a hypothetical carrier based J-20, but this is not official and a fan made piece of art.

Apart from these two I'm not sure what possible brochure you might be talking about. Fwiw, if it exists, I can't imagine the rest of the PLA watching community would've missed it.

View attachment 643249
Yeah if we had any officially published specs we would be using that instead of visual analysis any time someone brought up the size debate.
 

helmutkohl

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a few years ago,
I am pretty sure there was a pic circulating
of a J-20 (maybe a mock up) at an air show display or something
that had a sign with its official dimensions.
You sure not mistaking it with J-31 ?

it was definitely the J-20 because the pic was used in context with that debate over the J-20's length.
its somewhere on keypublishing

I don't recall any official display of J-20 at an airshow that describes its length.

The only official brochure of J-20 we've had afaik is this one, from Zhuhai airshow 2018 but it doesn't describe the aircraft's dimensions, only its general role




The other thing you might be thinking of is this non-official render and some specs about a hypothetical carrier based J-20, but this is not official and a fan made piece of art.

Apart from these two I'm not sure what possible brochure you might be talking about. Fwiw, if it exists, I can't imagine the rest of the PLA watching community would've missed it.

it could have been an unofficial display. IRC it wasn't an actual aircraft but a full size mock up. not sure if it was Zhuhai or some other event..
 

sferrin

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Let's us remind for a min watching this all the aggressive diatribe posted against those that maintained early on that this fighter has gigantic proportions...


The funny part on this is, this is a photoshop fake and as such in no way meaningful to determine the J-20's size.
Anyway we know the J-20's dimensions pretty well and it is simply shorter than a Flanker.
I think if you clipped the wings and tails off an F-22 and J-20 what you'd see is why the J-20 seems so much larger than the F-22.
 

latenlazy

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I think you may be talking about volume m3 etc.
He’s talking about visual perceptual biases. The F-22 has a larger tails and more forward placed wings. If you bias toward judging height based on and length based on features, the J-20’s fuselage looks bigger in proportion to its features than the F-22’s. The high mounted wings also doesn’t help that visual perception bias. The profile of the J-20 provides an uninterrupted geometry of the whole side carriage, while the F-22’s mid mounted wings blends the horizontal lines of the fuselage downward.
 

FighterJock

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BLACK_MAMBA

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I wonder if this is a new development possibly on new production air frames? Close up photo's don't reveal doors for a probe ala F-35B/C in the nose nor a possible door further back for a Gripen style extended probe.

With keen interest we wait!
 

Josh_TN

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Is the tanker variant of the Y-20 known to be operational? As far as I knew this was still in development.
 

Trident

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The photo looks genuine to me.

There in fact is a F-35 like probe on the J-20:

probe.jpg

As for the tanker, a prototype for the Y-20U (as it is apparently dubbed) is known to have been around for some time - as Deino says, it's entirely plausible that they would have started trials. It may be a slipstream test (the J-20 is not connected), but there is clearly a hose & drogue deployed from the Y-20 and the pods are visible, so it's definitely the tanker version.
 

FighterJock

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The photo looks genuine to me.

There in fact is a F-35 like probe on the J-20:

View attachment 643929

As for the tanker, a prototype for the Y-20U (as it is apparently dubbed) is known to have been around for some time - as Deino says, it's entirely plausible that they would have started trials. It may be a slipstream test (the J-20 is not connected), but there is clearly a hose & drogue deployed from the Y-20 and the pods are visible, so it's definitely the tanker version.

That is what I was thinking when I saw Deino's photo Trident, while the J-20 has not caught the drogue it is clearly part of the tests, what will be interesting is when the J-20 takes on fuel from the Y-20U tanker for the first time and how many pounds/kilograms of fuel will be taken by the J-20.
 

Blitzo

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Whether the specific photo is real or not (I think there are good chances it is, incidentally), the presence of an IFR probe on J-20s as standard has been confirmed for years now, well over five years I think, and the Y-20U tanker is very much in the "no debate over its existence" category.

I'd also add the idea of building a stealth fighter in this day and age without some sort of IFR system would be almost insane.
 

helmutkohl

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somewhat related question. if that is the IFR probe
where is the gun slot, if any
 

FighterJock

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Unless the J-20B is going to have a gun, then the J-20A will be the first modern fighter since the 1960s and the Vietnam War not to have a gun which I think is just plane (pun alert) stupid.
 

Arjen

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Guns could be fitted in external pods. Like on the Harrier, or F-35B/C.
 

FighterJock

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While that is true Arjen, the gun pod on the F-35B/C models will only be fitted on none stealthy missions or when it is most needed, there is nothing like a traditional internal gun behind a RAM covered door much like what the Raptor has.
 

Arjen

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Bottom line: J-20, F-35B and F-35C lack internal guns
MiG-31 started life with an internal gun, later removed.
It appears to depend on an aircraft's mission whether a(n internal) gun is needed.
 

TomcatViP

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What we can foresee today is that the gun will be mostly needed in A2G, being soon or later substituted by directed energy weapons in A2A.
Those canoe shapes under both wing roots might be an early installation of such.
 
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BLACK_MAMBA

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Unless the J-20B is going to have a gun, then the J-20A will be the first modern fighter since the 1960s and the Vietnam War not to have a gun which I think is just plane (pun alert) stupid.
Guns take up lots of premium internal space for both the gun and it's unused & spent ammunition. The USAF have stuck to their guns (another pun) faithfully ever since the 60's even on F-35A. Fact is, missiles have come a long long way since the 60's becoming ever more reliable. If it ever comes down to a guns merge in a stealth jet it is a very bad day in the office so I'm not surprised to see them dropping the gun. They want to come in "close" but still kill at arms length.
 

In_A_Dream

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Unless the J-20B is going to have a gun, then the J-20A will be the first modern fighter since the 1960s and the Vietnam War not to have a gun which I think is just plane (pun alert) stupid.
Guns take up lots of premium internal space for both the gun and it's unused & spent ammunition. The USAF have stuck to their guns (another pun) faithfully ever since the 60's even on F-35A. Fact is, missiles have come a long long way since the 60's becoming ever more reliable. If it ever comes down to a guns merge in a stealth jet it is a very bad day in the office so I'm not surprised to see them dropping the gun. They want to come in "close" but still kill at arms length.

Can you imagine a A-10 2.0 UCAV?
 

Blitzo

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Unless the J-20B is going to have a gun, then the J-20A will be the first modern fighter since the 1960s and the Vietnam War not to have a gun which I think is just plane (pun alert) stupid.

It would be surprising if the J-20 equipped with WS-15 doesn't have a gun imo.

But at present my understanding is that the lack of an appropriate gun for installation in the aircraft, as well as the likely weight incurred (which is relatively small but not inconsequential) means fitting current J-20s powered still be interim engines is not a priority.


Or putting it a different way, with the aircraft's capabilities as it was when it first entered service some 2+ years ago, would it have been logical to delay the aircraft's entry into service to wait for a gun?
 

Josh_TN

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It seems much more like an interceptor or fighter bomber. A gun seems a bit superfluous in those roles. I wouldn’t expect an F-111 to put down suppressing fire or an f-14 to gun down an opposing fighter, even though technically the latter was capable of it. But in an era of 180 degree 60G AAMs you have to wonder if there are going to be dogfights that take more than a half turn to resolve.
 

shin_getter

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In this modern era, obviously you put the gun on the missile!

Even without such a radical step, a loyal wingman would be far more suitable for that kind of combat. A manned fifth gen should just run away from that kind of engagement if at all possible.
 

Deino

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It seems much more like an interceptor or fighter bomber. A gun seems a bit superfluous in those roles. I wouldn’t expect an F-111 to put down suppressing fire or an f-14 to gun down an opposing fighter, even though technically the latter was capable of it. But in an era of 180 degree 60G AAMs you have to wonder if there are going to be dogfights that take more than a half turn to resolve.


Oh come on ... do we really need to repeat that stupid discussion? No, the J-20 is neither a pure interceptor nor a fighter bomber ... anyone who still claims this BS should read more recent reports and analysis than the very first assumptions based on "it is such a huge aircraft, it cannot be a fighter. This must be a striker similar to a F-111". :mad:
 

Josh_TN

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It seems much more like an interceptor or fighter bomber. A gun seems a bit superfluous in those roles. I wouldn’t expect an F-111 to put down suppressing fire or an f-14 to gun down an opposing fighter, even though technically the latter was capable of it. But in an era of 180 degree 60G AAMs you have to wonder if there are going to be dogfights that take more than a half turn to resolve.


Oh come on ... do we really need to repeat that stupid discussion? No, the J-20 is neither a pure interceptor nor a fighter bomber ... anyone who still claims this BS should read more recent reports and analysis than the very first assumptions based on "it is such a huge aircraft, it cannot be a fighter. This must be a striker similar to a F-111". :mad:
Well in any case, regardless of role, it seems like guns are increasingly less useful weapons and it is not alone in dispensing with one.
 

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