Chengdu J-10 "Vigorous Dragon" fighter

[RSF]

Thanks for the Russian translation Flateric! Still, fun to look at....

 

[Matej]

We will make it simple, we just add the second engine on the aircraft, it is nothing significant, just give me two days and it will be ready :

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

lol

takes a while to test intakes you know. Still need to analyze a lot of pressure recovery, compressor face pressure dis., pressure distortion etc. graphs. oh wait they're chinese... 8 hours should be enough B)

 

[Deino]

Only a few months after getting the new J-10's, the "Ba Yi" team changed its colous-scheme again ... but not my taste !

Deino

 

[Deino]

Production rate seems to be quite high at CAC ! :huh:
Any idea for which unit these new birds are foreseen ??

Besides that ... here's the picture in very large, but I can't save it !

http://club.mil.news.sina.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=272005


Deino

 

[Deino]

Seems now to be confirmed that the PLA-NAF received its first J-10s most likely under the designation H/SH and resp. AH/ASH.

Following the 83x4x-number it is the PLANAF's 4th Division 12th Regiment based at Luqiao ... quite interesting the same division that flies the Su-30MK2.

As such this is the 1st J-10 regiment for the PLANAF and the 7th overall and in mind of the numerous yellow birs currently standing at CAC yet another PLAAF regiment might be in preparation for the conversion process to begin maybe even this year.

Deino

 

[sferrin]

The J-10 is my favorite of the canards (Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon, Mig-1.44, J-10).

 

[Matej]

During the time when the J-XX competition have not get a winner, the CAC, as any aggressive company, have self-funded another twin engine fighter project nick-named as "twin-engined J-10" just in case if they lost to SAC on 5th generation competition, they will then do this cheap project and hope to win some orders from Airforce as a cheaper variation of 5th generation fighter and maybe some oversea orders as well.

However, after CAC have won the 5th generation project, they quickly throw away this "twin-engined J-10" project, althrough they then self-fund another single-engine stealth J-10 project aiming at export market.

CAC is a very aggressive company and high moitived, when they get the money, they will self-funded a lot of projects and do a lot of early stage investigation in areas where there is a potential,even without any funds from the State, and like to take the hard work to go through the more challenged high-riks-high-return route.

This is in constrast to SAC, which wont do anything until the State tell them to do and always miss the deadline and end up with poor designs.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/j-20-new-generation-fighter-23-4260.html

What do you think?

 

[Deino]

Just found here Bai Wei's - to admit a very nice and more than helpfull friend : - latest report on the J-10 published in the latest AFM !!

http://www.top81.cn/top81bbs/thread.php?cid=1&rootid=2933935&id=2933935

More than interesting are his "news" & confirmations on the Mirage 2000 evolution and the IAI/Lavi connection.

Cheers, Deino

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Nice but - should this be posted? Its from a current magazine.

 

[rousseau]

We barely do collection

 

[Deino]

We barely do collection

Here's the original photo ....

 

[Deino]

J-10B with ASEA !!!! ?

 

[Deino]

 

[Deino]

The J-10B is an increidbly attractive aircraft, almost Dassault attractive.

... :-* ...

 

[donnage99]

love china's propaganda method.

 

[chuck4]

From the antenna alone, it could just as easily be a passively scanned electronic array as an ASEA.

 

[fightingirish]

A J-10 was spotted in Chengdu on June 10 with twin-rail missile launchers carrying PL-12 missiles. Similar to the LAU-115/LAU-127 used by the Hornet, Super Hornet.

Source & pictures: http://alert5.com/2011/06/11/j-10-with-twin-rail-missile-launchers/

 

[Deino]

China order 123 АЛ-31ФН jet engines from Russia, cost over 500 million dollars
http://www.vedomosti.ru/newspaper/article/263213/motor_kitaya

Мотор Китая
«Рособоронэкспорт» заключил с минобороны КНР контракт на поставку авиадвигателей на сумму свыше $500 млн. Снабжать истребители собственными моторами китайцы пока не могут
Алексей Никольский
Ведомости
04.07.2011, 120 (2886)
Контракт на поставку 123 авиадвигателей АЛ-31ФН до 2013 г. на сумму свыше $500 млн «Рособоронэкспорт» заключил с минобороны КНР в начале июня, сообщили «Ведомостям» источник, близкий к руководству «Рособоронэкспорта», и менеджер одного из предприятий авиапромышленности. По словам последнего, первые 13 двигателей будут поставлены до конца текущего года. Выполнять контракт будет московский завод «Салют», который и ранее поставлял двигатели этой модификации в Китай: 54 единицы по контракту в 2003 г., 100 — по контракту в 2007 г., 122 — в 2009 г.
......

... and also ...

China’s Ministry of Defense signed a contract to buy Russian aircraft engines worth $500 million in early June, Vedomosti reported, citing an unidentified personsource close to Russia’s state arms-selling agency and an unidentified manager of an aviation company.
The contract is for 123 AL-31FN engines by 2013, the first 13 of which will be delivered later this year, the newspaper said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-04/china-signs-500-million-russian-jet-engine-deal-vedomosti-says.html

Seems as if we have to wait a bit longer for a TH-powered J-10.
Deino

 

[SOC]

The new engines could be for export. Pakistan is supposed to want some of these, and it'd make a lot of sense for Iran.

 

[chuck4]

Pakistan has no aircraft that can use AL-31, neither does Iran. Given the track record of both of those countries in designing their own aircraft, it is highly unlike either would be in a position to design an aircraft suitable for the AL-31. It seems implausible that the Chinese would sell large number of J-10 to Iran. It also seems implausible that Pakistan can afford 130 AL-31 equipped J-10.

In any case, if the Chinese can build a suitable domestic engine for the J-10, they would very much want to sell a domestic engined J-10 to other country instead of one with AL-31 so as to remove any obligation to the Russian engine manufacturer.

 

[SOC]

Pakistan has no aircraft that can use AL-31, neither does Iran.

I was referring to Pakistan's J-10 desire, and the possibility of a J-10 sale to Iran.

Given the track record of both of those countries in designing their own aircraft, it is highly unlike either would be in a position to design an aircraft suitable for the AL-31.

Hey come on, at least Iran TALKS a good game ;D

It seems implausible that the Chinese would sell large number of J-10 to Iran.

I don't see why. They have oil, China needs oil. There's always a US problem from the political side, but oh, wait, who holds cubic buttloads of US debt? China! In fact, Iran does have some aviation know-how, and Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and potentially others in the region could use a new 4th gen fighter. Since Russia is seemingly following US instructions to not play ball, setting up a license production and overhaul facility in Tehran might be an interesting idea.

It also seems implausible that Pakistan can afford 130 AL-31 equipped J-10.

123 engines does not mean 123 aircraft. Especially if it's to fill export orders, where spares are more of an immediate concern.

 

[chuck4]

Unless Iran gives up her quest for nuclear weapon, she has very little maneuvering room internationally and can't drive any hard bargains with china. She needs to ensure all the oil flow to China she could just to get ensure some degree of continued diplomatic cover from China for her nuclear program. So China is unlikely to have to sell J-10s to Iran - a needless irritation to oil rich Saudi Arabia, to say nothing of US and Israel - to keep Iranian oil flowing. So I foresee no J-10s for Iran.

J-10s for Pakistan is possible, but appearently Pakistan cancelled an 24 plane order placed in 2007, supposedly because the $50 million per plane price tag without technology transfer could not be afforded when JF-17 cost a third as much and comes with technology transfer.

 

[sublight]

The Chinese version of "top gun" with J-10's.... Sky fighters... http://www.novamov.com/video/el9iiiobn3jey

 

[sferrin]

Pakistan has no aircraft that can use AL-31, neither does Iran.

I was referring to Pakistan's J-10 desire, and the possibility of a J-10 sale to Iran.

Given the track record of both of those countries in designing their own aircraft, it is highly unlike either would be in a position to design an aircraft suitable for the AL-31.

Hey come on, at least Iran TALKS a good game ;D

It seems implausible that the Chinese would sell large number of J-10 to Iran.

I don't see why. They have oil, China needs oil. There's always a US problem from the political side, but oh, wait, who holds cubic buttloads of US debt? China! In fact, Iran does have some aviation know-how, and Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and potentially others in the region could use a new 4th gen fighter. Since Russia is seemingly following US instructions to not play ball, setting up a license production and overhaul facility in Tehran might be an interesting idea.

It also seems implausible that Pakistan can afford 130 AL-31 equipped J-10.

123 engines does not mean 123 aircraft. Especially if it's to fill export orders, where spares are more of an immediate concern.

I wonder how impossible an AL-31 powered Tomcat would be.

 

[chuck4]

As possible as Iranian ability to remanufacture the airframe to accommodate a fatter engine and a larger mass flow air intake, all for the sake of 35 year old airframes with 40 year old electronics and just a very few missiles left in their inventory that, if they still work, were designed to work with the package.

 

[Eagle2009]

Actually the AL-31 is dimensionally smaller and much lighter than the TF30, so clearly it is not a "fatter" engine. It is an inch smaller in diameter and nearly 40 inches shorter that the TF30, not to mention over 700lbs lighter.

And since the AL-31 has almost identical thrust to the F110 fitted to B/D model Tomcats, I see no need to make any major modification to the F-14A's intake system since I don't believe any major change was made with the F-14B/D.

Therefore I see no reason the F-14A's engines could not be swapped for the AL-31F, it fits in the existing airframe with little or no need for modifications and the replacement of the TF30s for F110s proves it can be done.

Now whether Iran ever has any plans to change the engines of the F-14s (whether now or in the past) is a different story.

 

[sferrin]

Actually the AL-31 is dimensionally smaller and much lighter than the TF30, so clearly it is not a "fatter" engine. It is an inch smaller in diameter and nearly 40 inches shorter that the TF30, not to mention over 700lbs lighter.

And since the AL-31 has almost identical thrust to the F110 fitted to B/D model Tomcats, I see no need to make any major modification to the F-14A's intake system since I don't believe any major change was made with the F-14B/D.

Now whether Iran ever has any plans to change the engines of the F-14s (whether now or in the past) is pure speculation.

AFAIK the Tomcats were designed with sufficient airflow from the start as they were suppose to go into service with the higher thrust P&W F401-400 (~28,000 - 30,000lbs )

 

[Eagle2009]

A good point.

Further, when it comes to the size, the difference between the F110 and TF30 is more so than the AL-31 (the F110 was smaller in diameter).

 

[kaiserbill]

Perhaps it would depend on how many F-14 airframes they have that could be modifiable?

 

[frank]

So engine mountings & engine related systems wouldn't need changing nor be major mods?

Actually the AL-31 is dimensionally smaller and much lighter than the TF30, so clearly it is not a "fatter" engine. It is an inch smaller in diameter and nearly 40 inches shorter that the TF30, not to mention over 700lbs lighter.

And since the AL-31 has almost identical thrust to the F110 fitted to B/D model Tomcats, I see no need to make any major modification to the F-14A's intake system since I don't believe any major change was made with the F-14B/D.

Therefore I see no reason the F-14A's engines could not be swapped for the AL-31F, it fits in the existing airframe with little or no need for modifications and the replacement of the TF30s for F110s proves it can be done.

Now whether Iran ever has any plans to change the engines of the F-14s (whether now or in the past) is a different story.

 

[sferrin]

So engine mountings & engine related systems wouldn't need changing nor be major mods?

If Iran can cobble together a twin-tail F-5 and get the Tomcat able to use Hawk SAMs as AAMs I don't see what the big deal is. Why should changing from a TF-30 to an AL-31 be orders of magnitude more difficult than changing from a TF-30 to an F110?

 

[SOC]

If Iran can cobble together a twin-tail F-5 and get the Tomcat able to use Hawk SAMs as AAMs I don't see what the big deal is. Why should changing from a TF-30 to an AL-31 be orders of magnitude more difficult than changing from a TF-30 to an F110?

The HAWK AAM project apparently didn't work out as well as some people think. Switching to the AL-31F might be a bit of a headache for a ton of reasons: 1) the engine ramp actuators and software might need to be tweaked for different requirements of the AL-31F, 2) there might be an issue with the placement/attachment of the gearbox, 3) depending on the weight, they might have to spend some time tweaking where it will attach internally, and how long the exhaust tube will be, to met CG requirements, 4) the AL-31F might not want to attach there without major internal changes, 5) they don't have the beenfit of experience with both engine designers to get everything squared away.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head. That doesn't mean they can't do it, but making a change like that will involve a bunch of minor issues that could combine into a major headache, and a relatively complicated process. Making the twin-tail F-5 wasn't nearly as complex (and generally laughable), and the HAWK AAM was more of a modification to the missile than the airframe (getting the seeker to take cooperate with the AWG-9).

 

[sferrin]

If Iran can cobble together a twin-tail F-5 and get the Tomcat able to use Hawk SAMs as AAMs I don't see what the big deal is. Why should changing from a TF-30 to an AL-31 be orders of magnitude more difficult than changing from a TF-30 to an F110?

The HAWK AAM project apparently didn't work out as well as some people think. Switching to the AL-31F might be a bit of a headache for a ton of reasons: 1) the engine ramp actuators and software might need to be tweaked for different requirements of the AL-31F, 2) there might be an issue with the placement/attachment of the gearbox, 3) depending on the weight, they might have to spend some time tweaking where it will attach internally, and how long the exhaust tube will be, to met CG requirements, 4) the AL-31F might not want to attach there without major internal changes, 5) they don't have the beenfit of experience with both engine designers to get everything squared away.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head. That doesn't mean they can't do it, but making a change like that will involve a bunch of minor issues that could combine into a major headache, and a relatively complicated process. Making the twin-tail F-5 wasn't nearly as complex (and generally laughable), and the HAWK AAM was more of a modification to the missile than the airframe (getting the seeker to take cooperate with the AWG-9).

Still, it'd be amusing if nothing else. Probably have dead Tomcat engineers rolling over in their graves.

 

[Trident]

Switching to the AL-31F might be a bit of a headache for a ton of reasons: 1) the engine ramp actuators and software might need to be tweaked for different requirements of the AL-31F,

Probably, but the same would have been true for the F110 and as sferrin says that worked alright.

2) there might be an issue with the placement/attachment of the gearbox,

Important consideration, given the top-mounted accessories on the basic AL-31F, but they could order FNs to reduce the problem.

3) depending on the weight, they might have to spend some time tweaking where it will attach internally, and how long the exhaust tube will be, to met CG requirements,

That did happen with the F110, yes.

4) the AL-31F might not want to attach there without major internal changes, 5) they don't have the beenfit of experience with both engine designers to get everything squared away.

In summary, I agree with sferrin it should not be any harder than switching from the TF30 to the F110, and that was actually done in retrofit (F-14A+) so airframe modifications must have been modest to make it worthwhile. Whether Iran has the ability to perform it is another matter of course, although if Russia was prepared to deliver the engines they could probably also be counted on to provide engineering support for the conversion.

 

[Deino]

Just back from the summer-hollydays ... and now this !!

Prototype 05 with Taihang !

Deino

 

[JFC Fuller]

Just back from the summer-hollydays ... and now this !!

Prototype 05 with Taihang !

Deino

Indeed, combined with the ongoing Varyag news ("declassified", deck now clear, smoke pouring from the stack, etc) it has been a very exciting PLA week. It will be interesting to see if the WS10A powered J-10 makes into PLAAF and/or PLANAF service- if it does then the WS10 has really come of age an more importantly it means China has developed the industrial infrastructure to mass produce it.

 

[Deino]

A slightly better one ...

 

[Deino]

besides that here's an interesting video showing the J-20, the FC-1 and J-10B 05 ...

http://www.56.com/u73/v_NjIwOD​YxNzQ.html#sm_st=19

Cheers, Deino

 

[Deino]

:-*