Canada buys land in France's Juno Beach due to condo plan (BBC News)

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63177891

 

[klem]

It's true "Progress is inevitable, but some parcels of land should never be touched, never," I liked this phrase because when the blood shed for freedom, all land becomes sacred and also because some places are loaded with symbolism..

 

[PMN1]

Be interesting to see how the French would handle a beach that had had a French force in the initial assault.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Be interesting to see how the French would handle a beach that had had a French force in the initial assault.

hopefully better than we do with some of our battle sites: There is a plaque in the shoe department of a Nordstroms commemorating a battle. I remember a news story about something involving the battle of Brandywine and something was going to happen to it.

 

[Archibald]

Be interesting to see how the French would handle a beach that had had a French force in the initial assault.

Badly, ses the Anvil Dragoon beaches...

 

[riggerrob]

Be interesting to see how the French would handle a beach that had had a French force in the initial assault.

General LeClerc and his 2ieme Division Blinde (Second Armored Division) landed on Omaha Beach on 1 August 1944, almost 2 months after D-Day. Once WALLIES had closed the Falaise Gap, LeClerc led the drive to Paris.
Meanwhile hundreds of Free French paratroopers had dropped into occupied France (e.g. Massif Central) with the SAS and got into all kinds of mischief.

 

[TinWing]

Be interesting to see how the French would handle a beach that had had a French force in the initial assault.

Badly, ses the Anvil Dragoon beaches...

Dragoon was actually far more successful in terms of objectives achieved in a timely manner and proportionate casualties than Overlord.

Perhaps the real lesson from Juno Beach and the entire D-Day invasion is the sheer stupidity of a heavily opposed landing. The simple cynical truth is that Overlord only happened because of Anglo-American fears over unexpected Soviet advances on the Eastern Front. The entirely operation was less about “freedom” than dividing the spoils of post-WWII Europe. It’s also worth remembering that we Americans had a very large and idle garrison in England and FDR could get away with a bloodbath in Normandy because the truth of the disastrous Italian campaign had been suppressed by wartime censorship.

 

[TinWing]

It's true "Progress is inevitable, but some parcels of land should never be touched, never," I liked this phrase because when the blood shed for freedom, all land becomes sacred and also because some places are loaded with symbolism..

The problem is that in 1944 that “freedom” was not in evidence in Anglo-American world where the press was censored, hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were interned and the forced conscription, which wasn’t widespread in Canada because of opposition from Quebec.

The Canada of 2022 is a far different and better place than the Canada of 1944. I’m not sure how relevant Operation Overlord is to an increasingly diverse Canadian population? Well into the post-war era, English speaking Canada was very Anglo-centric and there was substantial immigration from the UK immediately before and after the war. Today, I don’t see how any European battle has relevance to the children of immigrants from Latin America, West Africa or South Asia?

It’s worth remembering that Queen Elizabeth II was the last major public figure of the WWII generation. It’s high time to put aside the wartime propaganda and to examine the flaws of Allied leadership and the foolish complacency of Allied populations in the face of press censorship. Eulogize the “Greatest Generation” but don’t be blind to their failings.

 

[Orionblamblam]

.

Today, I don’t see how any European battle has relevance to the children of immigrants from Latin America, West Africa or South Asia?

Because that's they country they moved to. Willingly and intentionally. If you move from country A to country B you do so because you want to be a part of country B, their culture, language, history. Otherwise you should move back, or failing that, be deported.

 

[TinWing]

.

Today, I don’t see how any European battle has relevance to the children of immigrants from Latin America, West Africa or South Asia?

Because that's they country they moved to. Willingly and intentionally. If you move from country A to country B you do so because you want to be a part of country B, their culture, language, history. Otherwise you should move back, or failing that, be deported.

Sometimes “country B,” in this case Canada, doesn’t have a single unifying language or culture. And quite frankly, the history of Canada before the post-1960 “Quiet Revolution” in Quebec and subsequent move to bilingualism was pretty disgraceful. In 1944, Canadian society was heavily stratified with the descendants of the Revolutionary War Loyalists at the top, more recent Anglophone immigrants at the bottom and finally the Quebecois as a permanent underclass. In Montreal, the banks and corporate offices were entirely staffed by Anglophones and Francophones were largely relegated to manual labor. It’s no wonder that there were crises over conscription in Quebec in 1917 and 1944. Or that so much of modern Canadian history has been about righting past wrongs towards Quebecois and First Nations.

As far as immigrants moving back or being deported, the current reality is that nations like Venezuela aren’t accepting their own citizens back, so there’s nowhere to deport them to. It’s probably just time to accept the Eurocentric aspects of North American culture are fading and that current events are probably just the final manifestation of belligerence on a European continent with a declining native population and shrinking economic relevance. The future belongs to the Pacific Rim and there are signs of globalization accelerating economic growth in Africa. D-Day is just another part of our fading European past.

 

[Orionblamblam]

And quite frankly, the history of Canada before the post-1960 “Quiet Revolution” in Quebec and subsequent move to bilingualism was pretty disgraceful.

If "you," as a non-Canadian, feel that way, then don't move there. Pretty simple.

As far as immigrants moving back or being deported, the current reality is that nations like Venezuela aren’t accepting their own citizens back, so there’s nowhere to deport them to.

See below...

It’s probably just time to accept the Eurocentric aspects of North American culture are fading ...

Or... *not* do that. If you think people should feel shame for Canadas hsitory... holy carp, why extol the virtues of the Pacific rim? Maybe deport those hypothetical Venezuealans to somewhere were they can revell in the glories of... well, fill in the Asian horrorshows of your choice. There are a *lot* of them, putting Canadian shamefulness to shame.

 

[Hood]

Nobody has yet mentioned the 907 Canadians killed plus the 2,460 wounded and 1,946 captured at Dieppe in just one morning.
Makes Juno Beach look a walkover by comparison.

Today, I don’t see how any European battle has relevance to the children of immigrants from Latin America, West Africa or South Asia?

This is highly short sighted. The whitewashing of history has obviously been too effective sadly, or perhaps wilful forgetting of the past.

Quite simply the European land wars of WW1 and WW2 were never exclusively white.
In WW2 alone there were Latin American fighter pilots in the RAF, Brazilian soldiers and airmen in Italy, British recruits from the Caribbean in the Army and RAF, French North African soldiers, plus Indian soldiers - the largest volunteer army in history eventually totalling over 2.5 million men in August 1945 who fought in Africa, Asia and Italy with 87,000 killed. Today India doesn't like to mention these men, seeing them as being tainted by British Imperialism but they volunteered and died earning 4,000 awards for gallantry, and 31 Victoria Crosses (noticeably less than the white Dominions). Last but not least the black personnel of the US Armed Forces which were segregated and marginalised (yes the US even forced Britain into some measure of segregation while it's forces were stationed in Britain how's that for a modern democratic army of freedom?).

So yes, millions of people from all over the world have ancestors who found themselves fighting in Europe's wars. And none of us should forget that. Sadly it seems convenient for post-colonial peoples to write off their contribution as somehow tainted and unworthy of remembrance and forget their own heritage and history, ironically so as historians are seeking to overturn the whitewashing of Europe's history and highlight their contributions.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Nobody has yet mentioned the 907 Canadians killed plus the 2,460 wounded and 1,946 captured at Dieppe in just one morning.
Makes Juno Beach look a walkover by comparison.

Today, I don’t see how any European battle has relevance to the children of immigrants from Latin America, West Africa or South Asia?

This is highly short sighted. The whitewashing of history has obviously been too effective sadly, or perhaps wilful forgetting of the past.

Quite simply the European land wars of WW1 and WW2 were never exclusively white.
In WW2 alone there were Latin American fighter pilots in the RAF, Brazilian soldiers and airmen in Italy, British recruits from the Caribbean in the Army and RAF, French North African soldiers, plus Indian soldiers - the largest volunteer army in history eventually totalling over 2.5 million men in August 1945 who fought in Africa, Asia and Italy with 87,000 killed. Today India doesn't like to mention these men, seeing them as being tainted by British Imperialism but they volunteered and died earning 4,000 awards for gallantry, and 31 Victoria Crosses (noticeably less than the white Dominions). Last but not least the black personnel of the US Armed Forces which were segregated and marginalised (yes the US even forced Britain into some measure of segregation while it's forces were stationed in Britain how's that for a modern democratic army of freedom?).

So yes, millions of people from all over the world have ancestors who found themselves fighting in Europe's wars. And none of us should forget that. Sadly it seems convenient for post-colonial peoples to write off their contribution as somehow tainted and unworthy of remembrance and forget their own heritage and history, ironically so as historians are seeking to overturn the whitewashing of Europe's history and highlight their contributions.

Mexico deployed to the Pacific at least one squadron of P-47's that saw some extensive combat in the Philippines and Formosa. https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/V...ay/Article/196417/mexican-air-force-aircrews/ Mexico even built them a very nice memorial https://www.thehistoryreader.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/640px-Tribuna_Monumental_B.jpg

 

[riggerrob]

Part of Operation Dragon's success can be atributed to shortages of German soldiers in South Eastern France. Operation Dragon landed on Augst 15, a mere 10 days before German forces in Normandy collapsed in the Falaise Gap.
If you look at terrain and long-standing obstacles in the Rhone River Valley, you soon conclude that a seriously-opposed WALLIED Operation Dragon would have advanced slowly with heavy losses.
Finally, consider that many of the troops landed during Operation Dragon had been "stolen" from the invasion of Italy. Mind you, the invasion of Italy had ground to a slow slugging match as Germans mounted stubborn defenses at every river and ridge. Once they captured all of Italy, WALLIES still needed to capture the steep Brener Pass to enter Austria ... another diffiuclt slog.

 

[riggerrob]

Dear Tin Wing,
How quickly you forget that the pre-Quiet Revolution Canada was the Seven Years War, result of another war. Starting with the whole string of: French and Indian wars, Plains of Abraham, American Revolutionary War, Seven Years French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars, etc.
The British Army that captured Quebec City in 1759.
The British Army and Navy were distracted by other military problems in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. and could not muster enough soldiers to completely occupy the French colonies in North America: Acadia and Quebec, so they imposed a very lenient occupation with most control handed to compliant French politicians and Catholic priests. British occupiers also limited university education (was there even a university in Quebec that far back?) to priests, lawyers and doctors. British governors specifically wanted to limit French-Canadian leadership in banking and business. Leadership in banking and business was supposed to remain in the hands of the Scotsmen who already controlled the Hudson's Bay Company, East India Company, etc.
This short-sighted educational policy resulted in a surplus of lawyers. Those surplus lawyers went into politics and still have an over-reaching impact on Canadian federal politics.
I was born in Sherbrooke, Quebec during 1957 ... the start of the Quiet Revolution. The QR saw massive changes in traditionally Catholic and conservative Quebec society. By 1977, French Canadians had thrown off the colonial mantle and were busy oppressing their previous oppressors. English-speaking descendants of Untied Empire Loyalists (my tribe) were chased out of Quebec. Quebec Provincial Police had developed fascist leanings and I decided to leave. Being multi-lingual and multi-skilled, I was not forced to remain in an oppressive province. UEL who represented big-money simply decamped to Toronto. A few years later, that big-money moved to the Oil Patch in Alberta. Montreal was down-rated from Canada's largest city to Canada's second largest city.
The QPP's oppression of natives reached a head during the Oka Crisis of 1990.
So French-Canadian society was severely affected by wars and we would be unwise to forget those wars.

 

[klem]

For remembrance and memory, between yesterday and today.