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Can you complete the specification's contenders ?

hesham

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Hallo,
I don't have the British specifications file book,but I will offer some of specifications and hope to complete the competitors in it.

OR.329 for high altitude fighter: Blackburn P.139, Fairey F.D.3,
Hawker P.1103, Saro P.187,Vickers-Supermarine-559, Avro model----?,
Bristol model----?, De Havilland ----?,Handley Page ----?, Shorts ----?.
 

Antonio

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Dear Hesham,

What is Blackburn P.139, there is no reference in Tony Buttler's Secret Projects. Do you have any drawing to post?.

Acording to this source, this is the list of submitted designs

AW.169
De Havilland DH.117
EE P.8
Fairey Delta II derivative
Fairey F.155 Delta III
Hawker P.1103
Saro P.187
Vickers (Supermarine) Type 559

Cheers
Antonio
 

hesham

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Hallo Pometablava,

what about Avro,Bristol,Handley Page and Shorts ?.
 

lark

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The P.139 was a mid sixties project for a AEW aircraft
with two turbofans under the wing.
At that time Blackburn was part of the Hawker Siddeley Organisation.

See also: H.S-139 : Project Cancelled - Derek Wood.
 

boxkite

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The Blackburn P.139 couldn’t be one of the competitors for OR.329. After checking Roy Boot’s “From Spitfire To Eurofighter” book I’ve got also a confirmation that P.139 was a proposal for an AEW aircraft in 1963.

Tony Buttler recommended in the selected bibliography of his excellent books two AEROMILITARIA issues, published by AIR-BRITAIN in 1996 (No. 4) and 1997 (No. 1). The list in 4/1996 differs a little bit from the one Tony’s using in his book.

Here is the text from page 102:

“F.155 for two-seat all-weather high altitude fighter (cancelled)
Designs: Bristol 204F (design), Fairey Type V (design), Fairey FD.2 development (design), Avro 729 (design for 720 devt), Hawker P.1103, P.1116 (designs), A.W.169 (design), Saro PD.187 (design), Supermarine 559 (design), EEC P.8 Lightning derivative (design), D.H.117 (design)”

The Bristol 204F seems to be the fighter version Tony mentions on page 94 of his “British Secret Projects: Jet Bombers” book.
 

boxkite

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Bristol Type 204F

The author mentions the Type 204F separately (not together with the Type 204 for GOR339) in the list of the Bristol type numbers:
“204F – F155T – Supersonic two-seat fighter version, 1957”

SOURCE: “Bristol – An Aircraft Album” by James D. Oughton (ISBN 0 7110 0387 4), Shepperton, 1973, page 128
 

hesham

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Anther specification,
OR.301 for rocket powerplant fighter the contenders were :-

Bristol model-178,Hawker P.1091,Saro P.154,Shorts PD.7,
Avro model ----?,Fairey ----?,Blackburn ----? and Westland ----?.
 

Antonio

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From Secret Projects: British Fighters

Avro 720
Blackburn B.97
Bristol 178
Fairey Scheme A/B
Saro P.154
Westland A
Westland-Delane B
Boulton Paul P.122
Hawker P.1089
Short PD7
Short PD701
 

boxkite

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The above mentioned AEROMILITARIA issues limited the OR.301 competitors to the four designs you name in your post.

Tony Buttler wrote in his Jet Fighters book: "The Specification went to Avro, Blackburn, de Havilland, Fairey and, on request, Saunders-Roe."
 

hesham

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Hallo,

in OR.330 for supersonic bomber:-
Handley Page HP.100,Vickers SP4,EE P.10,Avro-730,Shorts ----? and Bristol ----?.
 

Antonio

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Hallo Hesham

OR330 From Tony Buttler British Bombers Volume

HP.100
Vickers R.156T
EE P.10
Avro 730 (2 variants)
Short PD.12
(No Bristol entry)

Related Research aircraft
Saro P.188-1 and 2
Avro 731

Cheers
Antonio
 

hesham

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Thank you Pometablava,

anther specification HR.144T for ultra-light helicopter: Fairey Ultra
helicopter model ----?,Bristol model-190,Percival P.91,Auster ----?,
Shorts ----? and Westland ----?.

the more intersting thing is for Auster and shorts which I didn't hear
they made a helicopters, except Auster B.9 project.
 

hesham

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Hi,

Please find HR.144T contenders Pometablava.
 

Antonio

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Hesham,

It is the first time I read about this specification. It sounds very interesting...could you give more info? A date, aby drawing?

Thanks in advance :)
 

boxkite

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AEROMILITARIA 4/1996 again:

OR.319 = HR.144 for ultra light helicopter
Designs: Fairey Ultra Light Helicopter, Bristol 190 (design), Saro P.507 (design), Short SB.8 (design), Auster B.9 (design)
 

boxkite

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Supplement:

Bristol Type 190 => a drawing should be in the Putnam book "Bristol Aircraft since 1910" (2nd edition 1970) on page 374

Jemiba, is there a Saro P.507 drawing in Tagg & Wheeler's "From Sea to Air. The Heritage of Sam Saunders"? I cannot find my copy in the moment ...
 

Jemiba

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No .... two of them ! ;D
 

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boxkite

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A three-view drawing of the Short S.B.8 entry for the HR.144T competition is given in the Putnam title "Shorts Aircraft since 1900" by C. H. Barnes on page 457. If anybody is interested in this drawing (and information too) please ask for it (but it will last a little bit longer because the scanner is buried under a pile of paper ...).

Shorts designed three further helicopters - the P.D.66, P.D.67 and P.D.68 (the last two in collaboration with Hiller). Can anybody help with artworks or drawings of them?
 

hesham

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Thanh you all,

in OR.303 for lightweight fighter to intercept Tu-4 bombers,which
led to Folland Fo-139 Midge.the other contenders I don't know
them.
 

boxkite

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After checking Tony Buttler's book and the mentioned AEROMILITARIA brochure there is no note on other competitors. Sorry.
 

hesham

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For OR.314 low altitude bomber which led to Avro-721 ,what were the other contenders ?.
 

boxkite

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OR.314

B.126 for low altitude long range bomber (superseded by OR.314 10.53)
Designs: Short* 186 (design), Short PD.9 (design), H.P.99 (design)

SOURCE: AEROMILITARIA No. 4/1996

* Short 186 is a misprint - it can only be the Bristol Type 186
 

hesham

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Thanks,

for F4/48 specification which led to Gloster Javelin ,what were the other contenders ?.
 

Antonio

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F4/48 Contenders

De Havilland DH.110
Gloster P.272
Gloster P.279
Gloster P.280

Source: British Secret Projects Jet Fighters since 1950. Tony Buttler
 

hesham

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I am grateful,

in OR.250 specification which led to Bristol model-172, what were the other contenders ?.
 

hesham

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If no information about OR.250,I am asking about OR.337 for mixed
powerplant fighter,the final rivals were Avro-720 and Saro P.177,
do you know the initial contenders ?.
 

Antonio

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Again from Mr Buttler's bibles ;D

OR.230 contenders (please note it is not OR.250)

Short SA4 (6 engine)
Short SA4 (4 engine)
Bristol 172
Handley Page HP72A (HP80)

OR.337 do you know the initial contenders ?.
Hesham, do you mean, F.124T/OR.301 for a pure rocket interceptor?

Avro 720
Blackburn B97
Bristol 178 (Straight and Swept wing variants)
Fairey Scheme A
Fairey Scheme B
Saro P154
Westland A
Westland B
Boulton Paul P122
Hawker P1089
Short PD7
Short PD701

Regards
Antonio
 

hesham

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Hi Pometablava,

I mean OR.337, which led to Saro SR-177, Avro-720 was wrong.
 

Antonio

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Ok Hesham,

The Mixed Power Fighter list is

Avro 720 (Mixed power redesign)
Saro SR53
Avro 726
Saro P177
 

hesham

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Thank you Pometablava,and in M38/48 specification I know just one contender,
Handley Page HP.93,do you know the other ?.
 

Antonio

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Hesham,

could you please give me more details?. HP.93 it is unknown for me, what role was designed for?. In the British Aircraft Specifications File (1920-1949) published from Air Britain there are no references about M38/48, the last number for that year is 25/48/P2 (refered to Sea Hawk Production)

Cheers,
Antonio
 

hesham

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thanks Pometablava,

I will research about this aircraft,but in OR.282 specification for
transonic research aircraft ,which led to Armstrong-Whitworth AW-58.
what are the other rivals ?.
 

Grey Havoc

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hesham said:
For OR.314 low altitude bomber which led to Avro-721 ,what were the other contenders ?.
boxkite said:
OR.314

B.126 for low altitude long range bomber (superseded by OR.314 10.53)
Designs: Short* 186 (design), Short PD.9 (design), H.P.99 (design)

SOURCE: AEROMILITARIA No. 4/1996

* Short 186 is a misprint - it can only be the Bristol Type 186
A nice model of the Handley Page can be found over in the modeling forum: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8154.0.html


There was also a fourth submission, the Avro Type 721. According to the Avro Heritage Group's website:

721

1952

Low- level bomber to Spec.B.126T. To be launched by
‘skip’plane. 4x NapierNP172 or 2x R-R Conway. Span
47’, Length 80’, Height 21’5”, AUW 124,400 lb. Skip
plane Span 64’, Length 42’6”
Not built.
Image below (sorry about the poor quality).
 

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hesham

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pometablava said:
F4/48 Contenders

De Havilland DH.110
Gloster P.272
Gloster P.279
Gloster P.280

Source: British Secret Projects Jet Fighters since 1950. Tony Buttler

Also the other contenders were;


Gloster P.276
Hawker P.1109
Blackburn B-95
 

hesham

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Hi,


for N.114T for RAF Night Fighter,the Contenders were;


Blackburn B-89
Shorts PD.5
De Havilland DH-116
Westland W.37
SARO P.148


and I know this shadow for DH-116,can anyone send a 3-view to
it.


http://www.airvectors.net/avvamp_3.html
 

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VictorXL188

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A three-view drawing of the Short S.B.8 entry for the HR.144T competition is given in the Putnam title "Shorts Aircraft since 1900" by C. H. Barnes on page 457. If anybody is interested in this drawing (and information too) please ask for it (but it will last a little bit longer because the scanner is buried under a pile of paper ...).

Shorts designed three further helicopters - the P.D.66, P.D.67 and P.D.68 (the last two in collaboration with Hiller). Can anybody help with artworks or drawings of them?
Here's that GA from the above mentioned publication
Shorts S.B.8.JPG
 

blackkite

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Hi! Saunders-Roe P.148
Crew: 2 (Sea Vixen type cockpit)
Power plant:
Avon RA.10R or RA.12 engine type
Dimensions:
38.5 ft (11.7 m) wingspan
50.0 feet (15.2 m) long
The wing area is 500 sq. m. feet (46.5 m2)
relative wing thickness 8%
Weight:
total 28,000 pounds (12,701 kg)
Flight characteristics:
Top speed
690 mph (1110 km/h) at sea level
Weapons:
Rifles - four 30mm Aden cannons
Missile - 72 unguided missiles
Source: TONY BUTTLER "BRITISH SECRET PROJECTS JET FIGHTERS SINCE 1950"
 

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