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Bristol Brabazon

hesham

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Hi,

the early concept for Bristol Brabazon in Flightglobal
shows it with pusher propellers and V-tail.
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1949/1949%20-%201647.html?search=aircraft%201949
 

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smurf

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Very like one scheme for the Bristol 100 ton bomber.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxhbMZbh_O0
 

Schneiderman

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The early evolution of the Type 167 Brabazon design can be tracked from Bristol's advertisements.
1) The initial design, shown in the advert from July 1943 appears to be a simple civil derivative of the high-wing '100 ton' bomber project with a butterfly tail. Bristol were given the go-ahead to proceed with design around this time.
2) By March 1944 the adverts show a larger aircraft with low wing and butterfly tail
3) In October 1944 a new design is shown. The engines are now installed as tractors and there is a conventional tail. This is recognisable as the definitive Brabazon.
4) However from October through to December this design alternates in the adverts with the earlier pusher/butterfly version
 

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hesham

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Nice find Schneiderman.
 

taildragger

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I've always wondered about the prototype's nose & windscreen configuration. It's one of the oddest looking features of the aircraft and was abandoned for a more conventional layout on the planned Mk. II. Does anyone have any insights into the reason for the prototypes's nose configuration?
 

hesham

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Hi,

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946%20-%200197.html
 

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Schneiderman

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Interesting. Probably just a piece of conceptual artwork as it combines the pusher engines of Bristol's early thoughts for the Brabazon project and the tail of the final version. Curious arrangement of windows suggests two decks, but why the extra (3rd) set in the hold? As I say, probably just conceptual artwork for the advertisement and not part of Bristol's evolution of the Brabazon.
 

blackkite

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Hi!

http://www.bocheritagetrust.com/before-the-cars/

https://alchetron.com/Bristol-Brabazon-1976095-W

https://www.flickr.com/photos/x-ray_delta_one/5560408654

https://sobchak.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/cutaway-bristol-brabazon-i/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6psEAOaJeQ
 

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kitnut617

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Some years ago I bought this book below, I don't see any mention of it in this thread. Loads of photos of it being built, the Mk.2 too. Plus some history which lead up to it and then some history of what happened after it was cancelled. A bit of the book has history of Filton too.
 

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alertken

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#4 #18. There are similar conceptual ads, 1944/45 for Saro's (to be) Princess Transatlantic boat. Why? Then, as now, firms' spend on marketing is excluded from recovery across Ministry cost-plus contract prices, so this spend comes straight off bottom line profit. Why bother? Who in 1944 was inspired to place a deposit to secure a delivery position?

So: ?propaganda? "Look here, Axis, we are so confident of Victory that we can doodle this stuff". "Look here, USA, when this unpleasantness is over we will be coming for you, C-54, C-69 &tc, with these splendid competitors". #18, 7/43, was whistling in the dark: Churchill said 12/42's halting of the thrusts, Alamein and Stalingrad, onto ME oil, was "not the beginning of the end, but maybe the end of the beginning", but when this ad was drawn we were still in dire straits in the Battles of the Atlantic and Arctic.
Or disinformation for the enemies? "If you think the current Heavy Bomber Offensives are bad, just think what's onway disguised behind these high payload civil schemes".

Bristol, and others had presented 100ton Bomber schemes, 10/42, just as Stafford Cripps was sent to the Ministry of Aircraft Production to break the delays in delivering Stirling/Halifax/Lancaster Heavies. He Nationalised Shorts, 23/3/43 and displaced them, with AWA, in management of Stirling production (outside Belfast); other firms were displaced from their own Works by his imposition of Authorised Controllers, to get product out the door. Cripps was in no mood to divert firms with distant pipe dreams, so chopped the 100ton Bomber.

But Bristol's Experimental Dept. was merely messing with feeble also-rans to Mosquito and he was a Bristol MP. He obtained Cabinet Approval to fund 11/3/43 Study of Brabazon Committee's 9/2/43 Type I, using their butterfly 100ton as baseline. Bristol's ignorance of large, pressurised structure was a positive advantage because proper firms, dilatory on Heavies, could not be spared. This ad was a way of telling Avro/HP/Short/Vickers to get their houses in order if you, too, would like such work in Peace.
 
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taildragger

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It's corporate brand building. Bristol had no interest in "telling Avro/HP/Short/Vickers to get their houses in order", it had an interest in broadcasting to the world what an industry leader it was. Boeing does lots of advertising today, including on TV, but not because they're counting on it being seen by an airline fleet management executive who thinks "Say, perhaps I should consider purchasing some of those fine-looking products - how is that spelled again, B-o-i-n-g?" And not as a way of warning Airbus to straighten up.
A strong brand is of great value to any business. It makes it easier to recruit talent, raise money, get along with regulators and sell product.
 

Schneiderman

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It's corporate brand building. ….
Pretty much, yes. Aircraft magazines of the period (and after) were full of similar civil project adverts by the major and some minor players. Blackburn got their Clydesman 'boat on the cover of Flight several times in '44 and '45 and there was never any real prospect of building it, just branding.
Lots of period adverts to scroll through here
 

RLBH

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It's corporate brand building. Bristol had no interest in "telling Avro/HP/Short/Vickers to get their houses in order", it had an interest in broadcasting to the world what an industry leader it was. Boeing does lots of advertising today, including on TV, but not because they're counting on it being seen by an airline fleet management executive who thinks "Say, perhaps I should consider purchasing some of those fine-looking products - how is that spelled again, B-o-i-n-g?" And not as a way of warning Airbus to straighten up.
A strong brand is of great value to any business. It makes it easier to recruit talent, raise money, get along with regulators and sell product.
And of course because they want to be seen by the engineering student, or midranking sales executive, as a good place to go and work. A campaign saying 'Work for us, we need test records filled out in triplicate by Thursday morning!' doesn't really achieve that. One saying 'Look at all this cutting edge stuff we do!' does.
 

alertken

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Yes, td, but DORA was not then an Explorer: (8/8/1914: Defence of the Realm Act.) 24/8/39: Emergency Powers (Defence) Act gave the Ministry of Labour Powers to direct all labour. If you failed your military medical you could be assigned to non-uniform work, as the Tribunal saw fit. The mines, if they chose, or off to Bristol to design 100 ton Bombers: you did what you were told. And if you were granted Reserved Occupation status, you could not respond to a brand-puff and ask nicely to be sent to Bristol. They might send you to Twatt.

Maybe these pointless, expensive ads. were for domestic morale-boosting: "I know you are being bombed some nights, but soon you will be able to fly on these magnificents, off to Hollywood." But in 1944 Pres./United A/L testified to Congress that “23 a/c would be able to carry all the N.Atlantic traffic in 1955 ” R.E.G.Davies,Airlines of US,Put,72,P.365.
 

taildragger

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Corporate brand building is a long-term enterprise. The strongest brands in the world (CocaCola, Apple, Boeing, Nike, Sony, Honda, even Amazon, etc.) have decades of history and advertising behind them.
This ad is clearly focused on the postwar world, where the Emergency Powers (Defense) Act could be assumed to be a thing of the past. By 1944, an Allied victory was inevitable and widely recognized as such and airframers' managers were all looking beyond the war, which was their proper role. If management wanted the "Bristol" brand to have value in 1950, advertising in 1944 was essential.
Commercial firms shouldn't and generally don't expend shareholder resources on public goods such as "domestic morale-boosting", they should and generally do seek a return on the shareholders investment. This breaks down a little during wartime but, again, the ad is focused on the postwar world. If this ad were motivated by anything but corporate brand building it wouldn't feature a hypothetical airplane (unavailable for purchase) or the corporate logo.
 

Schneiderman

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Emergency Powers (Defence) Act gave the Ministry of Labour Powers to direct all labour. …..you could be assigned to non-uniform work, as the Tribunal saw fit.....you did what you were told.
True, in the letter of the law, but not necessarily as stark as you suggest in practice. The government found that they were unable to prevent Bristol firing Fedden, or of Gouge quitting Short when they 'nationalised' it. Even for the lesser fry there was reasonable flexibility, for instance...…….
 

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Hood

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Emergency Powers (Defence) Act gave the Ministry of Labour Powers to direct all labour. …..you could be assigned to non-uniform work, as the Tribunal saw fit.....you did what you were told.
True, in the letter of the law, but not necessarily as stark as you suggest in practice. The government found that they were unable to prevent Bristol firing Fedden, or of Gouge quitting Short when they 'nationalised' it. Even for the lesser fry there was reasonable flexibility, for instance...…….
From that quote it wasn't just the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act that was flexible, seems like the Careless Talk campaign didn't register either if people were telling people they had just visited an aircraft company to anyone who happened to be standing next to them in the pub!

I don't think we should read too much into advertising, publishing adverts did not stop simply because there was a war on. Many companies and products were still advertised in newspapers and magazines.
 
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