Border and Offshore Submersible Sentry (BOSS) - Russia

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...submersible-patrol-ship-for-export-customers/

 

[DWG]

I'm particularly amused that they can lead with "Offshore patrol vessels are relatively inexpensive" and then propose turning one into a submarine.

It's effectively combining OPV and SSK to get the advantages of neither and the disadvantages of both.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Though it might be useful for a navy and country that wants to dip their toe into submarine operations.

 

[Foo Fighter]

It seems odd not to call it a submarine but that's par for the course now.

 

[Tzoli]

So basically a modern version of the coastal submarine of WW1 / WW2?

 

[Dilandu]

I'm particularly amused that they can lead with "Offshore patrol vessels are relatively inexpensive" and then propose turning one into a submarine.

It's effectively combining OPV and SSK to get the advantages of neither and the disadvantages of both.

Nah, it's OPV with the ability to dive on small depth. The idea basically that it could turn invisible & therefore avoid usual OPV problems (that they are tracked and avoided), being able to ambush the wrongdoers.

 

[Dilandu]

So basically a modern version of the coastal submarine of WW1 / WW2?

No, it is not a warship. It is a OPV with SOME ability to hide underwater. The idea is, that it would therefore be next to invisible for usual kind of problems (naval border trespassers, smugglers, poachers) and could catch them completely unaware. After all, smugglers and poachers rarely equip themselves with anti-submarine sonars, so even the very-very mediocre submersible could sneak on them.

 

[Foo Fighter]

The bigger organisations are already using craft like this, what then?

 

[Tzoli]

Hmm but I can clearly see "optional" torpedo enhancements even if not the standard 533mm Torpedo tubes but the usual ASW 324mm ones maybe modified for Anti Ship action or maybe their noses could be modular to quickly refit them for a possible wartime and coastal defence use?

Ah just read the end of the article:

"At the customer’s choice, the ship can be fitted with torpedoes, small guided missiles and autocannon."

So it CAN actually be used like a coastal sub!

 

[Grey Havoc]

So it CAN actually be used like a coastal sub!

Albeit a poor man's version.

 

[Hood]

Well the Soviet's did try a submersible aircraft in the 1930s and a submersible hydrofoil missile boat in the 1960s so there is precedence and this is a little less crazy.

I may be stupid but I thought the whole point of an OPV was to be a visual deterrent against criminals and errant fishermen? This seems more designed to sneak up on any intruders (unless it fouls the trawler's nets, then you just look like Keystone cops) for the ultimate 'gotcha' moment. Being reliant on sonar and periscope for observation seems rather limiting too for the patrol role.
Saying that the KGB border guards thought tooled up Krivaks were nice patrol boats so what do I know?

 

[DWG]

So basically a modern version of the coastal submarine of WW1 / WW2?

No, it is not a warship. It is a OPV with SOME ability to hide underwater. The idea is, that it would therefore be next to invisible for usual kind of problems (naval border trespassers, smugglers, poachers) and could catch them completely unaware. After all, smugglers and poachers rarely equip themselves with anti-submarine sonars, so even the very-very mediocre submersible could sneak on them.

All of which a conventional OPV can do using a low-end UAV.

It's a ridiculously over-engineered solution to the problem and even a minimal submerged capability will add massively to construction costs. Not only do you need a water and pressure-proofed hull, but a separate powertrain for submerged use and a second set of sensors for use when submerged.

 

[Kat Tsun]

So basically a modern version of the coastal submarine of WW1 / WW2?

No, it is not a warship. It is a OPV with SOME ability to hide underwater. The idea is, that it would therefore be next to invisible for usual kind of problems (naval border trespassers, smugglers, poachers) and could catch them completely unaware. After all, smugglers and poachers rarely equip themselves with anti-submarine sonars, so even the very-very mediocre submersible could sneak on them.

All of which a conventional OPV can do using a low-end UAV.

It's a ridiculously over-engineered solution to the problem and even a minimal submerged capability will add massively to construction costs. Not only do you need a water and pressure-proofed hull, but a separate powertrain for submerged use and a second set of sensors for use when submerged.

Considering it's being offered for export, I imagine they're hoping to get some unfortunate suckers to pay for it.

Maybe North Korea will buy some.

 

[Grey Havoc]

All of which a conventional OPV can do using a low-end UAV.

To be fair though, UAVs haven't been quite as successful in supporting Fishery protection & EEZ patrols as they were envisioned to be back in the 2000s & 2010s. You still need boots on the ground, so to speak.

 

[Dilandu]

I may be stupid but I thought the whole point of an OPV was to be a visual deterrent against criminals and errant fishermen? This seems more designed to sneak up on any intruders (unless it fouls the trawler's nets, then you just look like Keystone cops) for the ultimate 'gotcha' moment. Being reliant on sonar and periscope for observation seems rather limiting too for the patrol role.

Essentially it could do both. It could either patrol on surface, serving as visual deterrent, or sneak underwater, catching the misbehaving ones unaware. Useful, for example, for catching smugglers who may have friends tracking your OPV's; much harder to track underwater one.

 

[Dilandu]

All of which a conventional OPV can do using a low-end UAV.

UAV could not made an inspection or arrest.

 

[DWG]

All of which a conventional OPV can do using a low-end UAV.

UAV could not made an inspection or arrest.

But the OPV it came from could. Inspection and arrest are the bits that come after observing illegal activity

 

[DWG]

Maybe North Korea will buy some.

It would actually suit North Korea's habit of occasionally attacking the South Korean fishing fleet claiming it is violating their territorial waters. But I don't see NK having the money for it - Kim Jong Un just warned the party cadres a few days ago that they're in for another 'arduous march', which is the term they used for the 1990s famine.

The other potential customer I could see is Venezuela, which needs a new OPV after one of theirs sunk itself a year or so back (the moral of the story being don't ram ice-hardened liners in international waters).

 

[Dilandu]

But the OPV it came from could.

Problem is, that OPV could be tracked. If the operation is lucrative enough - like smuggling - they could afford "purely accidental" perfectly legal yacht cruising nearby and tracking the OPV, relying the data to other boats.

 

[Kat Tsun]

Maybe North Korea will buy some.

It would actually suit North Korea's habit of occasionally attacking the South Korean fishing fleet claiming it is violating their territorial waters. But I don't see NK having the money for it - Kim Jong Un just warned the party cadres a few days ago that they're in for another 'arduous march', which is the term they used for the 1990s famine.

The other potential customer I could see is Venezuela, which needs a new OPV after one of theirs sunk itself a year or so back (the moral of the story being don't ram ice-hardened liners in international waters).

I doubt Venezuela is interested. They have helicopters for this sort of job.

It's just a coastal submarine with a RHIB and a few torpedoes being marketed as an OPV, but the real practical uses are limited to infiltration of special force commandos and minor surface denial. Which is why I think it suits North Korea more than anyone else.

It's also Whiskey sized (and probably Foxtrot performance) and DPRK has plenty of submarines of similar size and capability.

But the OPV it came from could.

Problem is, that OPV could be tracked. If the operation is lucrative enough - like smuggling - they could afford "purely accidental" perfectly legal yacht cruising nearby and tracking the OPV, relying the data to other boats.

This is why the average OPV of around this size has a helicopter deck. Look at the Castles, the WMECs, and the Aegirs for what a OPV typically is. Lacking a helicopter spot is very rare, although it was more common in the 1960's I suppose, but that was a long, long time ago.

But this is (obviously) not a real OPV. It's a commando/littoral submarine.

Aside from that, a helicopter is essentially the only thing that can catch fairly common go-fast boats. It's practically mandatory for anti-smuggling jobs anyway.

 

[DWG]

But the OPV it came from could.

Problem is, that OPV could be tracked. If the operation is lucrative enough - like smuggling - they could afford "purely accidental" perfectly legal yacht cruising nearby and tracking the OPV, relying the data to other boats.

This is why the average OPV of around this size has a helicopter deck. Look at the Castles, the WMECs, and the Aegirs for what a OPV typically is. Lacking a helicopter spot is very rare, although it was more common in the 1960's I suppose, but that was a long, long time ago.

And even if it doesn't have a full heli-deck it probably has space to launch and recover a UAV. Following an single OPV isn't difficult when most will have AIS transponders, but ensuring a smuggling vessel can evade multiple law enforcement assets, all moving, is much more difficult.

 

[DWG]

But the OPV it came from could.

Problem is, that OPV could be tracked. If the operation is lucrative enough - like smuggling - they could afford "purely accidental" perfectly legal yacht cruising nearby and tracking the OPV, relying the data to other boats.

This is why the average OPV of around this size has a helicopter deck. Look at the Castles, the WMECs, and the Aegirs for what a OPV typically is. Lacking a helicopter spot is very rare, although it was more common in the 1960's I suppose, but that was a long, long time ago.

And even if it doesn't have a full heli-deck it probably has space to launch and recover a UAV. Following an single OPV isn't difficult when most will have AIS transponders, but ensuring a smuggling vessel can evade multiple law enforcement assets, all moving, is much more difficult.

Why would any OPV on a mission against smugglers operate its AIS transponder?

Because they're on by default and some shipping lanes are too busy not to have them on. And because the IMO mandates it under SOLAS:

"Ships fitted with AIS shall maintain AIS in operation at all times except where international agreements, rules or standards provide for the protection of navigational information. "

 

[Grey Havoc]

Though SOLAS is increasingly honoured more in the breach than the observance, so to speak.

All the same, it looks like it would be very compromised for surface running by that bow and an OPV submersible would presumably need to be able to achieve a reasonable speed on the surface.

Could be that they are planning to use partial supercavitation or some such for situations where it will need to make tracks fast on the surface.

 

[riggerrob]

Has anyone considered how valuable a shallow submarine would be for patrolling the High Arctic? It only has to dive maybe 30 meters to avoid pack ice. Then it could launch drones to monitor what is happening above the ice.
Would drones need their own explosives to penetrate (upwards) through ice?
Would the patrol submarine need larger explosives to blow holes in ice when they want to surface?

 

[carvalho2008]

https://projetosalternativosnavais....val-surface-fire-support-corveta-submersivel/

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Giv9qG1dI0

 

[supergaleb]

Maybe North Korea will buy some.

It would actually suit North Korea's habit of occasionally attacking the South Korean fishing fleet claiming it is violating their territorial waters. But I don't see NK having the money for it - Kim Jong Un just warned the party cadres a few days ago that they're in for another 'arduous march', which is the term they used for the 1990s famine.

The other potential customer I could see is Venezuela, which needs a new OPV after one of theirs sunk itself a year or so back (the moral of the story being don't ram ice-hardened liners in international waters).

North Korea already produces for decades semi-submersible torpedo boats and they also make very slender vessel fast attack boats.

 

[muttly]

Some of your high end drug smugglers might be interested.

 

[supergaleb]

No, just a nuke at Incheon. /s

 

[Grey Havoc]

I don't see NK having the money for it - Kim Jong Un just warned the party cadres a few days ago that they're in for another 'arduous march',

Ironically, the situation now three years later might mean they would be able to procure the design for domestic production, but also that they may be wanting to use the renewed Russian assistance to go straight for higher end combatants instead, if the current reports that the North Korean SSN program is moving ahead again are accurate.