Bf 109 in Japan and Ki.61

[Nico]

Hi friends,
I asked myself if post that topics in early aircraft or other discussion pages but, at last, I'm sure the matter could be considered a real 'secret project'!
Bibliogaphy is unbelievably scarce about the presence of Messerschmitt B 109 fighters in Japan (at least for me, ignoring both German and Japanese language).
I was unable to find any indication on the Billy Green's 'bible' on German aircraft and here and there I found scant information about an order or offer for five Bf 109E, but only three seems to have reached Japan. Various sources identify the aircraft as Bf 109E, Bf 109E-3, Bf 109E-4, Bf 109E-7 and unarmed Bf 109E-7.
Also dates are vague but most sources seem to agree on 1941. There are also brief reports about one or two Bf 109G or G-4 shipped later via submarine in 1942.
And, moreover, I think that the Kawasaki Ki.61 Hien only relation with the '109 was the Kawasaki Ha.40 (alias Daimler-Bens DB 601Aa) engine, and perhaps... the design of the windscreen: anyone of you friends, more versed in Japanese aviation, know if really there was some cooperation with Messerschmitt during the genesis of the Hien?
Searching for that matter, I found also a site downloaded several years ago, quoting an use of some Bf 109 by Chinese Nationalist Air Force... I thought there was confusion between Spanish Nationalist and Chinese Nationalist but... who knows? In the world of aircraft everything is possible...
Nico

 

[blackkite]

Hi! I believe there were no relation between Bf109 and Hien design.
http://sky.geocities.jp/jv88_hornisse/BF109.html
http://miraikoro.3.pro.tok2.com/study/gifu_mino_hida/01kakamigahara_kawasaki_sentouki05.htm

飛燕＝Hien, 翼面積＝wing area, 平方メートル:square meter, 全備重量＝gross weight, 最大速度＝maximum speed, 航続距離＝range

 

[Pelzig]

Most of my sources have the model as the Bf 109E-7. Japan purchased three of them in 1941 and they were used exclusively for comparison tests against Japanese designs. Of course, the Japanese had no interest in license building the Bf 109. Yet, the Allies thought they had, giving it the codename "Mike." I read an account of RAF Brewster Buffalo pilots in Asia and many times, pilots reported Japanese aircraft as "Messerschmitts" which may have supported, at least to the Allies, that Japan was using the BF 109.

As for the Ki-61, there is no evidence I've seen that associates the plane in any way with Messerschmitt. If anything, Dr. Richard Vogt, a German engineer (who later became the chief engineer for Blohm und Voss) working with Kawasaki, should get the credit. It was his influence which was seen in the lines of the Ki-61. The Ki-61 looks more like a He 100 but keep in mind the Japanese did operate for a short period of time, the He 112, which may have also provided some impression on Kawasaki. In addition, because the Ki-61 was so different from Japanese designs of the day, the Allies also thought it was a Bf 109.

I should add that in 1940, the Japanese paid 2.8 million Reichsmarks for three He 100D-0 fighters with the license built version of the aircraft to be called the AXHel. While the aircraft were never delivered, this bolsters the notion that the Ki-61 was far more influenced by the Heinkel designs, notably the He 100.

Maybe that site was confusing the Bf 109 with the Bf 108, the latter of which was used by the Chinese Nationalist Air Force.

 

[Nico]

Thanks a lot Hikoki!
The answer I was looking for!
Nico

 

[Pelzig]

Quite welcome, Nico. I revised my reply a bit to add some info about the He 100 which bolsters the idea the Ki-61 took influence from it.

Thanks a lot Hikoki!
The answer I was looking for!
Nico

 

[garys]

An interesting side note to this thread is in the book The Big E: The Story of the USS Enterprise by Edward Stafford. Many of the stories he tells relating to air-to-air combat in the early days of the Pacific War have the Enterprise's pilots battling Japanese "ME-109s" with their Wildcats! Quite the hoot!

Gary

 

[airman]

no relation : but with Db601 surely !

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Hien.(飛燕) Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP56SDH2OFk&feature=related

 

[Michel Van]

the fist encounter with Kawasaki Ki.61 in 1943
USAAF believed it's a Bf-109 or Italian Fiat Fighter, build under license in Japan.
Is called "Army Type 3 Fighter" by Imperial Japanese Army.

It's Ironic because only thing the Ki.61 and BF 109 have in common is the Engine: the Daimler-Benz DB 601 !
in 1939 Takeo Doi and Shin Owada start R&D for Ki-61 prototype using original DB 601,
Kawasaki licensed the DB 601, as the Ha-40 a very unreliable powerplant...

Let me put this way
Takeo Doi and Shin Owada had same problems like Messerschmitt Will and Robert Lussen
designing a Aircraft around a liquid-cooled inline V engine.
and found same solution !

 

[Stargazer]

As has been said above, the Ki-61 was certainly influenced by the Heinkel He 112 much more than by the Messerschmitt Bf 109.

Please note that two different variants of the He 112 were evaluated by Japan: one of the prototypes (V5) and a He 112B-0 which received the experimental Navy designation AXHe1. The latter is not to be mistaken for the A7He1, which was a Heinkel He 100D-0.

Influence of the He 112 on the Ki-61 can be seen below (beware that all three profiles are not necessarily in the same scale).

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Imported Me109 and Fw190.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi

 

[Justo Miranda]

Comparative drawings-1

 

[Justo Miranda]

Comparative drawings-2

 

[Justo Miranda]

Comparative drawings-3

 

[Justo Miranda]

Comparative drawings-4

 

[Justo Miranda]

Comparative drawings-5

 

[Stargazer]

Great profiles, but without a caption, or at least a name, they are pretty useless!!

 

[blackkite]

Thanks Justo!
No doubt that western aircraft manufactures were our good teachers.

 

[Arjen]

Great profiles, but without a caption, or at least a name, they are pretty useless!!

1: Kawasaki Ki-100
2: Reggiane Re.2001
3: Macchi C.202 C.205 because of the curved trailing edge to the radiator bath - I think
4: Reggiane Re.2005

 

[Stargazer]

Great profiles, but without a caption, or at least a name, they are pretty useless!!

1: Kawasaki Ki-100
2: Reggiane Re.2001
3: Macchi C.202/C.205
4: Reggiane Re.2005

Thanks! I'm not too good at Italian aircraft, I must admit...

 

[Arjen]

Thanks! I'm not too good at Italian aircraft, I must admit...

There are some real beauties among them. Thanks, Justo!

 

[Justo Miranda]

 

[windswords]

Great profiles, but without a caption, or at least a name, they are pretty useless!!

1: Kawasaki Ki-100
2: Reggiane Re.2001
3: Macchi C.202 C.205 because of the curved trailing edge to the radiator bath - I think
4: Reggiane Re.2005

Yep. I recognized the Ki-100 right away. The protruding tail cone of the C.202 was a dead giveaway but I wasn't sure about the other two. So each of these aircraft used a version of the DB601!

 

[Arjen]

The Re.2005 and C.205 had a Fiat-built 1,475hp DB605A-1 instead of the Alfa Romeo-built 1175hp DB601A-1 in the Re.2001 and C.202. During WW II, apart from several Italian designs, all kinds of aircraft started appearing with either the DB601 or the DB605.

Some examples.
The Romanian IAR-80
The Finnish VL Pyörremyrsky
The Swedish Saab J21 and Saab 18

Those were actually built; the Dutch Fokker works proposed a DB601 powered variant of their D23. Any number of other countries may have studied the use of the DB601 or DB605.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Additional info

 

[Justo Miranda]

Any number of other countries may have studied the use of the DB601 or DB605.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Any number of other countries may have studied the use of the DB601 or DB605.

 

[Justo Miranda]

the Dutch Fokker works proposed a DB601 powered variant of their D23

 

[Justo Miranda]

Marton X/V

 

[Justo Miranda]

and Manfred Weiss WM.123

 

[Tophe]

Thanks a lot for this wonderful collection of beauties, Justo.
Most of all, I ignored there was a Fokker-designed D-XXIII with DB engines, apart of the Marton one.

 

[Arjen]

Getting the DB-powered Spitfire into production would have been an interesting exercise in logistics. Thanks again, Justo.

 

[Jemiba]

Getting the DB-powered Spitfire into production would have been an interesting exercise in logistics.

Just to prevent misunderstandings: The Spitfire Mk.V with DB 605 engine was a one-off modification to test
a prized Spitfire airframe against that of the Bf 109.
For those interested the an original report about testing this aircraft can be found here:
http://cms.klassiker-der-luftfahrt.de/sixcms/media.php/58/Spitfire_Versuchsbericht.pdf

 

[Arjen]

I really, really shouldn't be surprised anymore by the stuff that surfaces here. Oh well

 

[Justo Miranda]

 

[lucamax]

Thank you very very very very very much Justo! Do you offend if from now I'll call you Santa Claus??

 

[Justo Miranda]

Ho,ho,hoooo

 

[Justo Miranda]

Just to prevent misunderstandings: The Spitfire Mk.V with DB 605 engine was a one-off modification to test
a prized Spitfire airframe against that of the Bf 109.
For those interested the an original report about testing this aircraft can be found here:
http://cms.klassiker-der-luftfahrt.de/sixcms/media.php/58/Spitfire_Versuchsbericht.pdf

Messerspit story here...

 

[Justo Miranda]

Messerspit story here...post-2